Whole house audio installation. help please?

[ChrisFrost]

Hey that's great. you found a solution that works for you.

Squeezebox being a cheaper solution wasn't in question; and having the walls open so you can run speaker cable all over the place is a great help too.

I spoke with the (new) rep for Logitec products but he wasn't up to speed yet on running server software on anything other than a PC.

Sonos is still my preferred choice though. I feel far more confident that a system will keep running reliably with Sonos. That's important for me as an installer. I want to keep my customers happy.

 

[frusc]

Hey that's great. you found a solution that works for you.

Squeezebox being a cheaper solution wasn't in question; and having the walls open so you can run speaker cable all over the place is a great help too.

I spoke with the (new) rep for Logitec products but he wasn't up to speed yet on running server software on anything other than a PC.

Sonos is still my preferred choice though. I feel far more confident that a system will keep running reliably with Sonos. That's important for me as an installer. I want to keep my customers happy.

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Setting_Up_Squeezebox_Touch_Server

Looks like you can, although personally I still prefer the standalone server route. I think given the number of zones I would have gone with the squeezeboxes even if everything was distributed and wireless.

Once you'e got a working hw/sw architecture the common points of failure will be similar across both platforms IMO. The only exception being Sonos has the independent wireless network. Ofcourse if you want to tinker with the Squeezebox server and install updates then you risk breaking things. However, thats an inherent pitfall of messing with a working system

 

[gwernybwch]

Sorry to bump an old post, but I’m in the same position as the OP as I’m planning to buy a house which needs rewiring, therefore giving a good opportunity to put in TV / Sat and phone at the same time.

The best way (I think) is to run cat5 to every point you think you'll need, whether it's tv, speaker, phone, control point. You can do the lot at once if you're building or decorating soon, or a little at a time as you feel like it.

Terminate each run of cat5 to a central point - cupboard, loft, whatever.

Yes - cat5, not speaker wire. You get 8 wires for the same effort of installing, which you can use independently - and it's cheap and universal.

I don’t understand how you use cat5 to replace speaker wiring. How do you transfer sound from an amp to speakers via cat5 cable? Does cat5 wiring carry sound?

Are all these wires (TV / phone / cat 5) going to create interference? If so, is there a recommended distance between the wires?

Thanks in advance for any replies

 

[ChrisFrost]

People use (misuse) cable for all sorts of things. CAT5e/CAT6 has been played with as speaker cable by the Hi-Fi communities for a while. Google FFRC for more info. The thing is though that they combine several cores together to make a multicore cable with a larger overall cross sectional area. They also run shorter distances than you would if piping audio around the house.

Personally I wouldn't use CAT cable to carry speaker-level signals around a home. A single run for stereo doesn't provide sufficient cross sectional area to compensate for some of the voltage drop over distance, nor is it oxygen free so the sound is a bit lifeless and dull. You could argue that if using cheap inceiling speakers then it doesn't really matter because you can't tell the difference anyway; but is that really the quality you want from the time, effort and cost of installing your own multiroom music system?

There are products such as Systemline that do use CAT5 for everything. However, these include baluns at the headend and speaker end to convert audio. In this case the CAT cable is being used to transmit power and a data signal rather than a raw speaker-level voltage. From a purely sonic point of view though Systemline isn't as good as inceiling speakers driven directly by an amp.

The thing with structured wiring is that there are several ways to skin a cat. Each has its pros and cons. You aren't just interested in getting wires from one room to another. It's what you do with those wires and how you control the gear on both ends that is just as important.

Start off with a plan of what you want and where. Include a wish list of how you want to control things. Then work back and see which of the various multroom products satisfy your needs.

 

[cajar]

Cat 5 wont give you better quality sound over wireless but if the wireless signal is poor or intermittent your track may end up buffering.

 

[Sam Gangee]

nor is it oxygen free so the sound is a bit lifeless and dull.

No, you are confusing oxygen and alcohol. My wife sounds lifeless and dull when she's alcohol-free.

 

[SimonH2]

Two neat tricks - Sonos plays your music in sync across several zones. There's no time delay because of cable length, so you don't get an echo.

Sorry, couldn't let that one go !
Signals in a cable tend to travel at something around .7c to .75c (where c is the speed of light in a vacuum, 3x10^8 m/s), so the audio signals ina cable will be fair whacking along at in excess of 200,000,000 m/s. You'd need 200m of cable to get just 1ms of delay - and if your house is big enough to have 200m of cable between two points then acoustic delays will be very significant. In any case, acoustic delays will be the predominant factor - like at public events where there's an echo from multiple speakers at different distances.

I think what you mean is that they compensate for data buffering/transmission. All the slaves will need to buffer the data stream locally - even if it's were just one packet. In practice, no buffer means a dropout on every error (of which there will be plenty on wireless). I assume that each slave is reporting where in the stream it is currently playing, so allowing them all to sync up. Apple's (also proprietary) protocol has this feature.
As well as buffering, there will be processing delays - this is very evident if you have multiple digital TVs on in the house - they can be several seconds apart (particularly if different makes) due to differences in how they process the signal.

 

[SimonH2]

For the OP, and the other one in the same position that came along later.

My suggested solution would be to arrange to be able to install/change cable later. So fit socket boxes in the wall and use conduit up the wall into the first floor floor space (or loft, or wherever). Make sure the conduit goes into the box, not as most people do it - stop the conduit short of the box and have a dogleg to get through the entry hole (and it's usually filled with plaster as well). To do it properly can often mean enlarging the hole in the boxes - sheet metal nibblers are good for metal flush boxes. And use deep boxes, even though it means more work to install them.

This isn't alway possible, but if it is then it gives by far the most future proof solution - just use large conduit as "what'll take a lot will take a little".

For a "budget" system, you can get small amps that fit in a standard accessory box - like these. Take a feed (you'll need some small 2x screened core cable) from an aux out on the main amp (ideally a "pre fade" which isn't affected by the main volume control) and you've got the same sound in each room. But unless you start plugging stuff (ie have a panel so you can swap plugs about - messy) or a matrix amp/switch then you can only have the same source for all zones.

 

[gwernybwch]

Thanks all for the replies.

People use (misuse) cable for all sorts of things. CAT5e/CAT6 has been played with as speaker cable by the Hi-Fi communities for a while. Google FFRC for more info. .

For a "budget" system, you can get small amps that fit in a standard accessory box - like these. Take a feed (you'll need some small 2x screened core cable) from an aux out on the main amp (ideally a "pre fade" which isn't affected by the main volume control) and you've got the same sound in each room.

I’ll take a look at both these potential solutions. Thanks.

My suggested solution would be to arrange to be able to install/change cable later. So fit socket boxes in the wall and use conduit up the wall into the first floor floor space (or loft, or wherever).

But if you have plastered over the conduit, doesn’t it make it hard to then change the cabling / wiring at a later date?

Start off with a plan of what you want and where. Include a wish list of how you want to control things. Then work back and see which of the various multroom products satisfy your needs.

I think that that is good advice. I’ll start doing that, so will probably come back with a load more questions!

 

[SimonH2]

But if you have plastered over the conduit, doesn’t it make it hard to then change the cabling / wiring at a later date?

That's why you use conduit. It leaves you with a smooth bore tube inside the wall - so you can put new cables in as required. The trick is that the conduit needs to end in the backbox - most sparkies will stop a few mm short of the box and (if the plasterer doesn't fill the gap) leave you with a tricky dogleg between the end of the conduit and the hole in the box. I've spent "a bit of time" over the years altering/enlarging the holes in boxes so the conduit will fit.