Why are ring finals split up/down not side/side?

[ericmark]

We in the main insist people have the option, but don't insist they use it, a few exceptions, like seat belts which since originally it was an option they have produced problems, the Reliant 3 wheel car had to have seat belts installed, and only place there was enough strength to comply was on the chassis, but the seat was on the body, so in the event of a crash the body would separate from chassis and cut any one silly enough to put the seat belt on in half, it was not until we were forced to put them on was there a problem.

So we can switch the extractor off, or close the window, if the ventilating was enforced, there is bound to be some problem with some houses, be it a wasps nest outside the window or sucking fumes in from an open flue, so we have to give option of switching off or closing window.

 

[ericmark]

We in the main insist people have the option, but don't insist they use it, a few exceptions, like seat belts which since originally it was an option they have produced problems, the Reliant 3 wheel car had to have seat belts installed, and only place there was enough strength to comply was on the chassis, but the seat was on the body, so in the event of a crash the body would separate from chassis and cut any one silly enough to put the seat belt on in half, it was not until we were forced to put them on was there a problem.

So we can switch the extractor off, or close the window, if the ventilating was enforced, there is bound to be some problem with some houses, be it a wasps nest outside the window or sucking fumes in from an open flue, so we have to give option of switching off or closing window.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

And to be fair that is a problem, everyone uses a house different, so a house which is perfect for one person, may not suit another because of the way it is used, my house when we brought up our son was open plan, only bedrooms, bathroom and kitchen had doors, so he was never brought up to close doors, I however can still hear my dad saying "put wood in the hole". And I still close doors.

Here, all ground floor doors are left open, apart from back door and outer back door, whole house is heated to a similar temperature so why not. Exception is that they are closed to limit noise.

Upstairs doors are always closed, except when rooms are occupied, to limit heat rise from the downstairs. We prefer bedrooms cooler and it keeps one of our dogs out of bedrooms. Stat is in hall, which has a direct to outside door, but which is rarely used, normal ingress and egress is via side/back door. Layout works well, I have wax TRV's on all but the hall radiator, they tend to be a waste of money on the downstairs rads.

 

[JohnW2]

And there's no guarantee that an extractor fan will be used either - they are commonly switched off either because of the noise or because of the (incorrect) perception that they cost a fortune in the heat they suck out of the house.

Indeed.

As for that 'incorrect perception', if they did what is says on their tin (and if the house had adequate ventilation to allow that), they would suck a fair bit of heated air out of the house, wouldn't they?

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Since there is absolutely no guarantee that an openable window will ever be opened (and we know that a substantial proportion virtually never will), if it is deemed necessary to have an extractor when there is no 'openable' window, should that requirement not also apply when there IS an 'openable' window (which may never be opened)?

Is there, in fact, such a requirement - in terms of a specific regulation or are we in the dreaded guides again?

... or I suppose they could make using a bathroom without opening the window punishable by life imprisonment, or worse!

The British are very law-abiding (or used to be).

 

[ericmark]

Here, all ground floor doors are left open, apart from back door and outer back door, whole house is heated to a similar temperature so why not. Exception is that they are closed to limit noise.

Upstairs doors are always closed, except when rooms are occupied, to limit heat rise from the downstairs. We prefer bedrooms cooler and it keeps one of our dogs out of bedrooms. Stat is in hall, which has a direct to outside door, but which is rarely used, normal ingress and egress is via side/back door. Layout works well, I have wax TRV's on all but the hall radiator, they tend to be a waste of money on the downstairs rads.

That was the same with our open plan house, forget and leave a bedroom door open, and the room was way over temperature, the old wax TRV helped a bit, but radiator too far away from door really.

The use of TRV heads with temperature set in degrees C was a huge step forward, mainly because we knew what the set temperature was, so if it over shot then close the lock shield valve, and if it did not reach set temperature open the lock shield valve. Point is of course if we knew the set point temperature of the old wax TRV heads they may have also worked.

We now have a larger house, so don't know how it will work, but what I did find was never a problem getting upper floors warm, upper floors it was over heating that was always the problem, so in this house upper floors are controlled by cheap (£15 each) bluetooth TRV heads, entrance floor however has the more expensive (£40 each) wifi TRV heads which link to the wall thermostat, so if I change the temperature on Nest, all three rooms auto change to same temperature. Odd one out is kitchen, using a cheap head in kitchen as that has the outside door used to bring food into the house, and the cheap TRV head has a window open function which if it detects rapid cooling turns the radiator off for set time think 1/2 hour, so not heating outside, this feature is not on the more expensive ones. However as yet all untested.

In mothers old house I was surprised one how well they finally did work, and two how long it took for a single room to heat or cool, one problem was the built in anti hysteresis software, I had to cheat in the morning 7 am set to 24°C and 8 am set to 20°C other wise it was 11 am before settled at 20°C, and switch whole central heating off at 10 pm with a second thermostat in parallel in the kitchen set to 14°C in case there was a really cold night, but most mornings at 7 am temperature had only dropped to 17°C and that was with a threshold free front door for wheel chair which did not seal very well.

I can see why people don't want to spend £40 a pop on TRV electronic heads that link to wall thermostat, but simple heads which are stand alone start at £10 each which is no more expensive than a wax one, since we find it hard to read the display, I have the bluetooth version so I don't need to kneel at the TRV with magnifying glass to set them, but still only £15 each. Just can't see point of fitting wax ones.

 

[ericmark]

Is there, in fact, such a requirement - in terms of a specific regulation or are we in the dreaded guides again?
The British are very law-abiding (or used to be).

I think it does not matter if dreaded guides or law, if the building inspector says you must have it, then you must have it, in another thread I said how I was forced to fit an extractor fan.

Since the house had open flue gas fires there is a problem fitting cooker hoods, tumble driers and bathroom extractors, if the doors and windows are not very well sealed, then no need for the extractor, if they are well sealed you can be drawing flue gases into the room, one may get away with one item blowing air outside, but with three running there is a very real chance of drawing flue gases into the house.

So simple risk assessment fit extractor can kill some one, don't fit it and bathroom may get a little mould in it, to my mind where there are open flue fires then there should be no requirement for extractors unless it stipulates heat recovery units, even then needs to be twin fan type.

 

[JohnW2]

Is there, in fact, such a requirement - in terms of a specific regulation or are we in the dreaded guides again?

No such legal requirement that I am aware of - such that I suspected it was another issue of 'the dreaded guides'. In particular, Part F merely says this ...

If fear that I did not include enough emphasis in what I wrote, since my intended meaning was ...

"... IF [not just 'if' !] it is deemed necessary to have an extractor when there is no 'openable' window, should that requirement not also apply when there IS an 'openable' window (which may never be opened)?​

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

I think it does not matter if dreaded guides or law, if the building inspector says you must have it, then you must have it, in another thread I said how I was forced to fit an extractor fan.

As I wrote earlier, although it is a difficult situation when an inspector takes such a view, you were not 'forced' - although if you did not go along with the inspector's view, it would be a gamble....

... all the law (Part F) requires is that "There shall be adequate means of ventilation provided for people in the building". If you were very confident that the means of ventilation was 'adequate', then you could challenge the LABC via a legal route - but, as I said, it would be a gamble because, in the face of such a vague law, what a Court would deem to be 'adequate' would not be predictable.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

No such legal requirement that I am aware of

Therefore -

"... IF [not just 'if' !] it is deemed necessary to have an extractor when there is no 'openable' window, should that requirement not also apply when there IS an 'openable' window (which may never be opened)?

Obviously not.

 

[JohnW2]

Therefore - .... Obviously not.

I'm not doing very well with my wording, am I? How about (third time lucky?) ....

"... IF [not just 'if' !] it isWERE deemed necessary to have an extractor when there is no 'openable' window, should that requirement not also apply when there IS an 'openable' window (which may never be opened)?"​

... a question to which I would suggest the answer is not "Obviously not".

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

What about - "but it isn't"?

Not being awkward but it's a pointless question.
People are allowed to keep their windows shut if they wish - and switch off a fan.

 

[JohnW2]

What about - "but it isn't"? ... Not being awkward but it's a pointless question. ... People are allowed to keep their windows shut if they wish - and switch off a fan.

Exactly.

This is all getting unnecessarily complicated! Albeit with lots of imperfect wording, I was attempting, for eric's benefit, to reinforce the point I made to him back in post #95 (that the requirement for fans relates to 'dreaded guides', not the law) - by attempting to say that not only do I not believe that there is any explicit law/regulation which requires an extractor fan when there is no openable window, but also that such a law would be daft (hence possibly why it doesn't exist) ...

... if it were the case (which I do not believe it is) that the law required a fan to be fitted when there was no openable window (despite the fact that, as you say, people would be free to switch off/disable the fan), then that law would surely also have to require a fan to be fitted when there was an openable window (which, as you also say, people would be free to leave shut), wouldn't it?

Put another way, if (for whatever reason) they felt that it was necessary to insist on a fan being fitted, even though they knew that it might not be used, whether or not there was an openable window (which might well never be opened, if if it existed) would seem to be an irrelevance.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

So if opening a window give adequate ventilation then a fan is not required, or if a fan gives adequate ventilation an opening window is not required. However if some other opening is provided then it would also comply. However the vent it says is for the people in the building, not to stop mould growth, or to stop timbers becoming rotten, it is only for the people, which means there is no difference for bathroom, bedroom, kitchen or living room.

There is no difference in ability to breath in a living room as to a bathroom with a bath full of tepid water, if the water is very hot then OK it would make a difference, but so would having a kettle on the boil in a kitchen.

So we are back to the original, it is down to the building inspector as to what he deems is required, with the wet room I was involved in fitting, neither window or fan would be used while having a shower because it would cause the room to get too cold, the room opened out to the hall, which was kept cool, only after a shower would either a window be opened or fan turned on, in both cases no one is in the room so the ventilation is not for the people in the room.

The same clearly applies for any run on with the fan, once the room has no people in it, then that law does not apply, so no requirement for a run on. Even the approved document does not say any automatic running of the fan is required, the old approved document said where there is a window that does not open, it needs a means to turn on the fan without turning on the lights, however that has now been dropped. But a pneumatic timed push switch is still a valid method of working the fan, there is no need to have it connected to lights.

Number of baths or showers in a room, and size of room must make a difference, daughters wet room in her flat in Turkey is rather large, likely 12 x 12, and it does not have a shower head, just taps and a bowl (like builders tug) and a plastic mug to throw the water over ones self, since no bath or shower rose, under British rules she could have a electric socket in the wet room, clearly they don't, but also under British rules the house would be deemed as not having a bathroom, we also in my memory had houses where the bath was not fixed in any room, and was hung in an out house when not in use. And the muck cart would come to empty the loo, far more environment friendly than the modern water closet.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

As for that 'incorrect perception', if they did what is says on their tin (and if the house had adequate ventilation to allow that), they would suck a fair bit of heated air out of the house, wouldn't they?

In my opinion, a well position extract system is a much better option than opening windows during the normal course of life, and will waste much less heat than an open window.

My bathroom fan runs on PIR and or humidity, so it runs whilst ever my bathroom has a surplus of moisture. It only runs when necessary, unlike a window which is easily forgotten about an left open, with a variable amount of ventilation which is entirely dependent on the strength of the wind.

Likewise my kitchen hob has an extract, drawing moist air out directly at its source and always used when cooking. I have a complete ban on drying any washing in the house, except in my utility, which is fitted with a dehumidifier and a fan, to keep the humidity low.

The main thing is the suck moist air out, as close as possible to the source of the moisture - open windows don't really do that.