Why are ring finals split up/down not side/side?

[ericmark]

Isn't that a good enough reason
bear in mind that some plumbers are only now fitting zone valves and room stats because the regs say they have to. I suspect many would be happy to fit on-TRV valves and no controls if they could.

Not sure which is best, likely no zone valves and TRV heads which can be programmed work better. The problem is how to stop the boiler cycling as warmer weather arrives, traditional method was manually turn it off, or fit a thermostat in the room kept coolest with no alternative heating and no outside doors.

However when the thermostat started to be fitted with either anti-hysteresis software or connected to the ebus the whole idea was turned on it's head, today it seems we have three systems, EvoHome and Tado use OpenTherm and the TRV head tells the thermostat how much heat is required, Nest also uses OpenTherm but simply uses a follow command so TRV's change temperature with the wall thermostat, and Hive uses off/on (mark/space) with a "heat on demand" function so if any TRV wants heat the boiler runs, using the return water temperature to modulate the boiler.

Oil boilers often don't modulate anyway so zone valves still work, but with gas fitting zone valves defeats the boiler modulating, so it does seem plumbers are right, better not having zone valves, except with oil, the government has just not caught up with changes. Or those saying must have zone valves are misreading the regulations?

But is seems we are all no longer allowed to be tradesmen, the whole idea of using our brain and working out what is appropriate has gone, we all have to blindly follow rules, like with mothers house they wanted to fit windows that would let inferred heat in but not out, but the problem was the rooms got too hot in the sun light, south facing windows needed to be opposite way around to stop inferred coming into the house.

 

[JohnW2]

But is seems we are all no longer allowed to be tradesmen, the whole idea of using our brain and working out what is appropriate has gone, we all have to blindly follow rules ...

Whilst that is undoubtedly sometimes true, we see a lot of the opposite - tradesmen choosing not to "use their brains and work out what is appropriate"...

... many of the laws and regulations (e.g. Parts L, M & P of the Building regs, even some parts of BS7671) are written in very general terms, often requiring no more than that 'reasonable steps' are take to achieve the stated goals of the law/whatever, thereby allowing people to use their brains, knowledge and experience to determine a 'reasonable' approach in a particular real-world situation. However, rather than use their brains and decide for themselves, many seem to rely (without any compulsion so to do) on 'guidances' - such as that in 'informative' Appendices of BS7671, Approved Documents or the OSG.

The solutions/approaches offered by those guidances are by no means always optimal in a particular real-world situation (since one size rarely fits all), but represent a 'no thought' approach for the lazy, or those incapable of doing the thinking.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

The regs don't require "zone valves" - Part L requires reasonable measures for energy efficiency. The guidance to Part L givers zone valves (with associated time clocks/wall stats) as a way of complying with Part L - but it doesn't say that's how you must )or even "should") do it.
But of course, when the guidance document says "If you do X then you will be deemed to have complied with Y", then many will simply do X without any thought. Thus it's currently seen by many to be "doing the job" by fitting a wall stat (smaller properties) or two zone valves with clock(s)/stats for larger properties - ie what some of us were doing decades ago (dad had that in the house 3 decades ago) and have (in many cases) already moved on from - c.f. discussions on electronic TRV heads
On the subject of deliberately not thinking, I've read at least one comment over in the plumbing section along the lines of "I never recommend anything other than a combi". Had to make for the easiest "don't have to think about it" life possible

And as John points out, many in the lecky trade do similar - just follow the "reference examples" and avoid need for thought.

 

[ericmark]

In some ways I can understand why people follow guides, a plumber may fit 1000's TRV's, but he only actually uses the ones fitted to his own house, I tried and failed to get reports on all the different programmable types.

We try to use our brain to work out what might happen, however what is expected is not always what happens. Be it the amount of cable used in a ring to comply with 1/3 rules when drilling beams, or how heating works when using programmable TRV heads, the amount of heat which transfers through floors, ceilings, and internal walls means often the room simply never cools down even when the TRV set to low temperature.

I know in theory we can use the loop impedance tester to work out volt drop, but I would guess few ever do.

 

[JohnW2]

In some ways I can understand why people follow guides, a plumber may fit 1000's TRV's, but he only actually uses the ones fitted to his own house, .... We try to use our brain to work out what might happen, however what is expected is not always what happens. ....

That's more complicated and is really not what I've been talking about ....

... I'm talking about those, who through either laziness or inability to think, choose to regard 'guidelines' as if they were laws/regulations, rather than thinking for themselves about what the laws/regulations actually actually allow, and thereby decide for themselves what is the best approach in a particular situation - it's that sort of attitude/approach which leads to people thinking that 'the law' requires zone valves or extractor fans with a period of timed run-on, thinking that spurs from unfused spurs of ring finals are never allowed etc. etc.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I was forced by LABC inspector to fit an extractor fan in my mothers wet room, it had opening windows, but he said on the ground floor we would never use them, as people coming to house could walk past the open window, I was sure it would never be used even if fitted, but I wanted the completion certificate so had to fit one.

I was correct it was never used, however if I was some one fitting bathrooms on a regular basis I would not want to have to retro fit an extractor fan, so I would fit one in every case.

Having said that, I noted in my street a double glazing firm has fitted non opening windows to the bathrooms of quite a few houses without fitting extractors, and in my house in spite of opening window it is really needed, as very few vents in the house.

With electrics often we don't see what is wrong, with central heating it is more apparent, and yet it seems again and again I see systems which clearly do not suit the house, nothing wrong with the general idea, but it does not suit the house it is fitted into, my son for example has fitted a Nest gen 2 thermostat in the hall next to the front door, I also have a Nest gen 3 thermostat in the hall, but mine is opposite end to front door, and being gen 3 I have 4 TRV heads linked to it. So we both have thermostats in the hall, in both cases at the bottom of the stairs, but in real terms very different, specially since there is no easy assess to my official front door think originally there were steps outside to road now removed, so my front door is never used. And all three entrance level rooms have doors to outside, so there is no single room which is really suitable to control boiler other than hall.

I would like to think my son is intelligent he has level 5 education same as me, and works as an electrical engineer, and like me trained in using logic for programming PLC's and the like, he has to think out of the box at work, as I did, and yet he fitted a thermostat next to front door, and to be fair in his two up, two down house it actually works OK even if it does not make sense, I think because he never closes doors so he can hear what kids are up to. Mothers house with thermostat in hall was a complete mess up, it never worked right, as she insisted in always closing the doors to each room with raising butt hinges to ensure they closed.

And to be fair that is a problem, everyone uses a house different, so a house which is perfect for one person, may not suit another because of the way it is used, my house when we brought up our son was open plan, only bedrooms, bathroom and kitchen had doors, so he was never brought up to close doors, I however can still hear my dad saying "put wood in the hole". And I still close doors.

 

[JohnW2]

I was forced by LABC inspector to fit an extractor fan in my mothers wet room, it had opening windows, but he said on the ground floor we would never use them, as people coming to house could walk past the open window, I was sure it would never be used even if fitted, but I wanted the completion certificate so had to fit one.

Yes, it's difficult when the person who chooses not to use their brain and think for themselves is a BCO or an 'LABC Inspector'.

In clear-cut cases (like 'spurs from unfused spurs from ring finals are never allowed'), if anyone could ever be bothered to get such a case into Court, the 'electrically correct' argument would hopefully prevail. However, so much of the law (like the matter you mention) is very vague in simply requiring "reasonable steps/provisions to be taken", there could never be certainty as to what a Court would decide were "reasonable steps/provisions".

Kind Regards, John

 

[winston1]

Having said that, I noted in my street a double glazing firm has fitted non opening windows to the bathrooms of quite a few houses

Well that is pretty dumb, a bathroom should always have an opening window in my opinion.

 

[JohnW2]

Well that is pretty dumb, a bathroom should always have an opening window in my opinion.

Most of them do but, in my experience, it's extremely rare for the occupants of the house to ever open them - so, apart from their presence (even if never opened) being an excuse for not having an extractor fan, they rarely seem to achieve anything!

The 'always' in your sentence probably needs to be reconsidered. There's no compulsion for a bathroom to have an outside wall - and in some situations (e.g. many hotels etc. , and a good few arrangements of blocks of flats etc.) they commonly don't. In those situations, if bathrooms 'always' had opening windows (so that the designers weren't 'dumb'), the window would open into some other room, maybe another person's room!

Kind Regards, John

 

[winston1]

The 'always' in your sentence probably needs to be reconsidered. There's no compulsion for a bathroom to have an outside wall - and in some situations (e.g. many hotels etc. , and a good few arrangements of blocks of flats etc.) they commonly don't. In those situations, if bathrooms 'always' had opening windows (so that the designers weren't 'dumb'), the window would open into some other room, maybe another person's room!

Very true, of course. In those situations an extractor is useful.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I feel pretty sure Eric wasn't talking about bathrooms with no external wall.

 

[JohnW2]

I feel pretty sure Eric wasn't talking about bathrooms with no external wall.

I'm sure you're right - but that doesn't make the 'always' correct in the statement from 'he who insists on precision'.

However, given that we were talking about 'dumb', I would say that it is a bit dumb to base decisions on whether or not mechanical ventilation is needed on whether or not the window is 'openable', when it is uncommon for 'openable' windows in bathrooms to be opened!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

Even in 1980 when the houses were built, either a window must open, or it needs an extractor, so window fitters should never change an opening bathroom window to one which can't open without also fitting an extractor.

But my point was before double glazing the water would condensate on the window run down to catchment tray and then outside ensuring the room was not damp, it was only after double glazed windows were fitted that other methods of de-humidifying the bathroom air were required.

We think rooms are dry, however this year I finally bought an air conditioning unit, 6 hours running and I got 3 litres of water, clearly room not that dry.

 

[JohnW2]

Even in 1980 when the houses were built, either a window must open, or it needs an extractor...

Indeed - but don't you regard that as 'dumb'?

Since there is absolutely no guarantee that an openable window will ever be opened (and we know that a substantial proportion virtually never will), if it is deemed necessary to have an extractor when there is no 'openable' window, should that requirement not also apply when there IS an 'openable' window (which may never be opened)?

... or I suppose they could make using a bathroom without opening the window punishable by life imprisonment, or worse!

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

And there's no guarantee that an extractor fan will be used either - they are commonly switched off either because of the noise or because of the (incorrect) perception that they cost a fortune in the heat they suck out of the house.