Why does a pipe split?

[mrherb]

Hi there,

We recently had some plumbing, and re-tiling work done for us in a holiday home which is an old converted building. After one week of being occupied, about 6 weeks later, we discovered damp patches up the walls which continued to grow until we turned the stop tap off. There has been no freezing weather there for months.

We got the guy back in and he found a split in an original copper pipe (in a 10cm length of pipe between two soldered 90degree bends), under the tiles which he had laid. He had attached new pipe work to the existing copper pipe either side of this old joint, (approx 30cm one side and a meter away on the other), in order to fit a new bath & shower. We are now disputing whether the split was caused by his work or not.

The original copper pipework was done when the building was converted about 12years ago and there has never been a problem with any leaks at all.

In the period just after he did the work we had a slight leak under the new kitchen sink (which he plumbed up) due to a rubber washer not being seated properly, which I fixed myself. He claims that due to the turning on and off of the stop tap an air lock got into the system which somehow caused the split (i.e. not his fault).

The stop tap is under the kitchen sink, the bathroom is about 8-10 meters away from the sink and downhill from it.

Can this happen? Or is it feasible that this split could be caused by anything other than the work he did, or directly as a result of it?

Hope you can help - we just want to hear what some other experienced people think about this before we go any further.

Thanks in advance

 

[Johnmelad502]

Can you upload a picture of the split pipe?

 

[Nige F]

He knows not what he`s on about Air causing split BUT to be fair to him - moving /touching and joining to an existing pipe CAN cause it to fail because it was 99% failed in the first place - probably by flux residue from the FIRST refurb job.Or corrosion from the original floor cement . He is NOT Guilty Not much of a plumber maybe - but innocent all the same

 

[mrherb]

Johnmelad502 - the split was buried before I saw it and didn't get a picture unfortunately, but my wife did and she says it ran along the pipe, a hairline tear about 1-2cm long. What do you think based on that info?

Nige F - thanks for your feedback, that is interesting - I am really solely interested in whether his work CAUSED the leak rather than his "innocence". After he repaired the leak we are left with a damaged property, which we accept as our problem, but now he also wants paying for the repair work he did, which I think is unreasonable.

Anyone else agree/ disagree?

 

[1john]

If you had the tyres changed on your car and then you got a puncture would kwik fit give you a new tyre?

 

[gasbanni]

Copper pipes can spit seen it quite a few times, metal fatigue, corrosion,
stresses applied to pipe when originally installed who knows ? is it a hot supply pipe ? One thing for sure if its an existing pipe its not his fault.

What could he possibly have done to cause it to split in situ.
Pipe should have had corrosion protection if touching wall plaster etc.
These things happen.

 

[mrherb]

If you had the tyres changed on your car and then you got a puncture would kwik fit give you a new tyre?

Obviously not, but I think the analogy you give is false. If a split appeared in the tyre they had supplied & fitted a few weeks later then I certainly would expect a replacement - it is still not the same, but more like what has occurred.

 

[Alz0r]

If you had the tyres changed on your car and then you got a puncture would kwik fit give you a new tyre?

Obviously not, but I think the analogy you give is false. If a split appeared in the tyre they had supplied & fitted a few weeks later then I certainly would expect a replacement - it is still not the same, but more like what has occurred.

He didn't supply or fit the dodgy pipework though! You're existing pipework seemed to be teetering on the edge of splitting anyway, and fair enough his manipulation of the copper further down the line may have just been the straw that broke the camel's back. Not his fault imo, suck it up!

 

[Richard C]

If you had the tyres changed on your car and then you got a puncture would kwik fit give you a new tyre?

We have a local tyre dealer that does; or at least repairs it FOC

 

[mrherb]

Copper pipes can spit seen it quite a few times, metal fatigue, corrosion,
stresses applied to pipe when originally installed who knows ? is it a hot supply pipe ? One thing for sure if its an existing pipe its not his fault.

What could he possibly have done to cause it to split in situ.
Pipe should have had corrosion protection if touching wall plaster etc.
These things happen.

Interesting point but I disagree with your assertion that it is not his fault.
Isn't entirely feasible that the stresses were applied to the pipe when he did the refitting work (the pipes were moved a fair bit whilst he worked)?

He chose not to replace the section of pipe between the two joints he made to it (he was contracted to refit the entire bathroom and the pipe that leaked is in the middle of it) and the result was a leak that has caused a great deal of damage which we have to pay for one way or the other.

Is it not the responsibility of the contractor (when they have their own choice in how things are done) to work in such a way that it doesn't have knock on effects that damage the property of the contractee? And if it does are they not obliged to make good a repair?

I am very grateful for the opportunity to discuss this - not tying to pick fights here honestly!!!

Thanks

 

[gasbanni]

Obviously I cannot see the job but the splitting of a copper pipe is due to stresses or corrosion thinning the pipe wall.... its under stress it splits.

I dont know the inns and outs as to what the contract entailed so cannot comment on it. If the guys any good he would not have ragged the pipe about anyway. I went to a job where a central heating pipe had split two years down the line I didnt install it. Materials fail ....... It had been fine for two years what caused it to split it was on a bend ... Stress.

I make a living fixing leaks in modern apartments, these are usually due to bad workmanship and nearly always on plastic waste pipes !

 

[JohnD]

copper pipe, if it is sound, is very difficult to damage by moving it about. You might put a bend or a crease in it, no more. Or you might disturnb a fitting that had been badly made. Try it yourself. I cannot imagine how you could cause a longitudinal split.

was this pipe buried in a concrete floor, or clipped to a wall?

if the house has been unoccupied, with water in the pipe, then it had probably frozen at some time in the past.

 

[mysteryman]

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

I think there was frost damage already, and the pipe was about to split. Not the installer's fault. A longitudinal tear is characteristic of frost damage, and it may have been stressed almost to failure at any time before.

He has already been kind enough to repair it for free, and it is not reasonable to expect him to repair other damage.

 

[Axel]

If I was asked to do work in PART of a bathroom, eg, fit a new basin, then I would not be responsible for failure of an old pipe that my new pipe was connected to.

However, if I was asked to rip out an old bathroom and fit an entire new one, choosing to utilise the original pipework would be equivelent to fitting second hand pipework, which is not a satisfactory way to do it, unless you informed the client that changing this old pipework would entail a lot of extra work and the client agreed to take the risk. It all depends on the specification of exactly what you paid your plumber to do in the first place.

Building insurance often covers damage caused by leaks.

 

[Agile]

Interesting point but I disagree with your assertion that it is not his fault. Isn't entirely feasible that the stresses were applied to the pipe when he did the refitting work (the pipes were moved a fair bit whilst he worked)?

I am very grateful for the opportunity to discuss this - not tying to pick fights here honestly!!!Thanks

Unfortunately, what you are saying does not indicate that! It appears that you have posted your question hoping for us to indicate that its his fault. As you see, professionals dont agree with your expectations so you "disagree! with what we are telling you , not based on your professional experience but just because it does not fit in with your hopes that we would say its his fault.

We dont know you, or the job, so we can give totally unbiased advice based on what you have told us. We are never hesitant to blame shoddy work when we encounter it but that does not seem to be the case here.

We have not seen the damaged pipe but a longinitudal split is typical of frost damage. That was probably weakened some time before and then actually opened up later. Its unlikely to have been caused by any air or his pipe connections, but by stresses from shock waves when taps are turned off. This is particularly likely when lever taps are flicked off as water in incompressible and it creates a shock wave in the pipe when the flowing water is suddenly shut off.

Tony