why downlighters

[17thman]

1) the life of 240v lamps are poor at the best

2) if they are transformed, when the transformer dies, they are awkward at the best, to reach to replace

3) the light they propogate is like 2 inch torches. The light is not ambient.

4) you have to replace lathe and plaster ceilings if you want them

5) the correct terminations of 2 x 1.5 cables is difficult to acheive in the rediculously small space provided.

6) they lend themselves to people not continuing the earth when connecting a series of them if class 2

7) wrong ones chosen and installed for the zone they are in.

8) horribly expensive to install in domestic situations as apposed to a couple of pendants.

9) produce heat in abundance, energy wasted, when it should be light energy produced, not heat energy.

10) cause all sorts of problems with loft insulation

11) removal for earth loop teast can blow plaster board.

12) more difficult than bc or es to replace for some people.

13) unsightly discolouration of the rims

14) 8 x 50w = 400w as apposed to a couple of, or one pendant or any other say low energy fitting

15) when you are fed up with them, consider the making good of the ceiling

16) only a few seconds of wow, when demonstrating to friends and then a life time of woe.

 

[sparkybird]

It's a 'fashion' thing, innit!

Can't wait till they start going out of fashion. I have replaced a few with more trad lights (central pendant) but not as many as I've installed

 

[RF Lighting]

1) the life of 240v lamps are poor at the best

That's the same with any cheap 240V lamp. Remember with downlighters you have × times more lams, so they will fail × times more frequently.

2) if they are transformed, when the transformer dies, they are awkward at the best, to reach to replace

How often is that? I've had 5no. ELV downlighters in my bathroom for over 10 years and I'm yet to have a lamp fail, never mind a transformer.

3) the light they propogate is like 2 inch torches. The light is not ambient.

It depends how they are installed, and what sort of lamps you use.

Can you more clearly define what you mean by ambient lighting?

4) you have to replace lathe and plaster ceilings if you want them

Or just use 'F' rated fittings.

5) the correct terminations of 2 x 1.5 cables is difficult to achieve in the ridiculously small space provided.

What ridiculously small space? I've never had a problem

6) they lend themselves to people not continuing the earth when connecting a series of them if class 2

The same could be said of any piece of class 2 equipment, or class 1 for that matter if DIY is involved.

7) wrong ones chosen and installed for the zone they are in.

The same could be said of any piece of electrical equipment. I've seen sockets right next to sinks, fluorescent battens and standard switches / sockets / joint boxes used outside.

8) horribly expensive to install in domestic situations as apposed to a couple of pendants.

I've fitted fancy chandeliers that have cost thousands of pounds in domestic situations. A couple of pendants would have been much cheaper.

9) produce heat in abundance, energy wasted, when it should be light energy produced, not heat energy.

It's saves on the cost of central heating as it helps heat the room.

10) cause all sorts of problems with loft insulation

Not if they are installed properly. Loft caps are an easy way of solving this.

11) removal for earth loop test can blow plaster board.

Rarely, but again, this is usually due to bad installation, rather than any fault with the fittings, or the genre of lighting.

12) more difficult than bc or es to replace for some people.

I've never had a customer unable to replace a lamp in their lights

13) unsightly discolouration of the rims

This will not happen if they are installed properly and are fittings of reasonable quality. I've replaced loads of flex drops where the lampholder has burnt out.

14) 8 x 50w = 400w as apposed to a couple of, or one pendant or any other say low energy fitting

I can not and have never argued that they are not inefficient. It is up to the customer to make an informed desicion. It's no different to buying a super charged V12 ferrarri instead of a smart car. They both do the same thing, but with different levels of efficiency, and in a different style.

15) when you are fed up with them, consider the making good of the ceiling

That is something to consider. I've had them for years and am not fed up with them yet.

16) only a few seconds of wow, when demonstrating to friends and then a life time of woe.

Or, a nice bright instantly lit aesthetically pleasing long lasting installation.

I guess what you're trying to say is that downlighters are not as easy to install as some people think, and improperly installed ones using the cheapest trannies / lamps / fittings can cause problems, just like any other piece of electrical equipment.

 

[17thman]

nice reply RF, I'm laughing, in a nice way, i will explain ambient. It means " existing in the surrounding area" ie not directional. We both know what that means. The other responses? let me know when you have to replace the trannies, or get bored with the decor

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I can not and have never argued that they are not inefficient. It is up to the customer to make an informed desicion. It's no different to buying a super charged V12 ferrarri instead of a smart car. They both do the same thing, but with different levels of efficiency, and in a different style.

Not a good analogy at all.

The Ferrari and the Smart are both designed to be passenger cars.

Using them as such is not engineeringly offensive.

2" torches are not designed to light up rooms - in fact they are specifically designed to not do that, so using them for it is offensive.

 

[RF Lighting]

A downlighter is not designed to light up a room.

A few downlighters are designed to light up a room. I know that, because I designed it.

 

[sparkticus]

I am not a fan of downlights either but what is the main point of your list?

We have fitted downlighters into lathe ceilings (many times) and even square drywall boxes into lathe walls. There is a risk that the plaster can "pop" but if you are careful it works out fine.

 

[17thman]

spartikus, if you are not a fan of downlighters, why do you fit them?

 

[thomo27]

I have just finished a job installing 58 downlighters of 3 different types.. kitchen lights were square with a half round clip to squeeze and slide up into the ceiling quite a nice fit..

2nd type were LED with 2 springs which push up into the ceiling and spring backdown to the board again easy to install..

Worst type were the main bathroom and en suite fittings with 2 springs that push into the ceiling but the smaller bit of the springs sits against the board and required a firm push to bend back onto itself.. these marked the ceiling but mostly it was covered by the fitting...

If I saw another downlighter it would be too soon..

Next to install is a 600 Watt Chandelier...

 

[sparkticus]

spartikus, if you are not a fan of downlighters, why do you fit them?

That is a question to which the answer should be obvious, I fit them because customers ask me to fit them after I have tried my reasonable, polite best to talk them out of fitting them.

Your list just sounds like an ill informed rant.

 

[RF Lighting]

nice reply RF, I'm laughing, in a nice way, i will explain ambient. It means " existing in the surrounding area" ie not directional. We both know what that means. The other responses? let me know when you have to replace the trannies, or get bored with the decor

Well would you bloody believe it. One of the lamps has failed in my bathroom today. First one in ten years though, so shouldn't really complain!

 

[maintenanceman2007]

Apart from pendantt what other options would be recommended if LV downlighters are not recomended and you wanted to produce an interesting light scheme?

 

[sparkticus]

Apart from pendantt what other options would be recommended if LV downlighters are not recomended and you wanted to produce an interesting light scheme?

Not sure I fully understand your question? Do you want an alternative to ELV downlights for a bathroom zone? (LV is anything from 50VAC to 1000 volts AC) ELV is anything up to 50 VAC or 120VDC.

 

[xr4x4]

nice reply RF, I'm laughing, in a nice way, i will explain ambient. It means " existing in the surrounding area" ie not directional. We both know what that means. The other responses? let me know when you have to replace the trannies, or get bored with the decor

Well would you bloody believe it. One of the lamps has failed in my bathroom today. First one in ten years though, so shouldn't really complain!

You know what's gonna happen now don't you....?

They are all going to start popping...!

 

[sparkymartin]

In my experience is a massive difference between:
1 Good quality downlights, installed correctly and safely with advice on the amount of light that will be produced and whether they are suitable.

2 Cheap downlights, DIY installed with little thought put in to the difference between them and a centre pendant.

I regularly install downlights and they can give customers exactly the effect they are looking for and very rarely do I return to the job to replace lamps, trasformers or to change back to a pendant.

However I do get called out to sort out the problems that people are having with downlights not installed by an electrician. Usually very cheap and incorrectly installed.

There is no need for downlights in every room, but in the right place I think they can look great. And they need not cause people problems!