Why is it difficult to obtain a written quote

[topgazza]

Softus...I think thats what I'm saying...there should be an industry wide expectation.

I appreciate that refusing to give a written quote when someone is just gathering various prices is a choice you make as a businessman. But surely if you got the job on a verbal quote...which was my last point that you didn't understand...and having read my words I can see why .....any request for a written quote before starting is not then unreasonable...I would suggest that in todays world the people who provide that written quote on getting the job win more business than they lose...

As for allowing someone to start work based on an estimate billy bob.....thats fine if you state to the customer that there are a number of unknowns so a fixed quote is not possible...and they accept that risk...which is where this comes to a head. Why is it that people feel they are being ripped off by the plumbing trade...accurate or not...but that is a clear perception that every poll says that is what "people" feel. Its because of the cowboys out there who only provide estimates because they are lazy, incompetent and don't know how to estimate a job, or just looking for an opportunity to make a few extra quid on top. Maybe a minority for sure but it happens more often than is healthy. If you state, which you should to give the cust at least some idea, the estimate may vary by, say, 20 % how often do you think it does precisely that ? How often do people charge less than the estimate ?

Not accusing you of that...as if...but why should the customer take all the risk....once again, good paperwork protects the installer as much as the customer. Good practice is always to build a decent risk budget in any work....size of budget depends on the complexity of the job...say 5% for a straightforward boiler like for like swap....more for a whole house heating job. But if someone who claims to be experienced can't even do that then they really shouldn't be let out without their guardian....

One thing I do know as a fact...and I fully understand the pressures...that if there were less legal cases involving installers and customers then your insurance rates would drop. Its all about no surprises....

 

[topgazza]

Just a separate additional point.....for what its worth I am on your side here guys...all I'm suggesting is that making things more formal between you and the customer will make your life so much easier.....

The customer...me being one...would benefit as well but by all means work on whatever basis you and your customers are happy with but some basic standards across the industry would help improve its image and help dispel some of the myths.

Another way to look at it is...would you buy a car, house or a TV without seeing a written warranty or paperwork, MOT, service history etc but because the guy selling it seemed a good chap?

If not then should you expect someone to spend thousands of pounds with you on the same basis ? Happy to agree to disagree on this matter...just trying to give another perspective is all.......

 

[billy bob]

Most companies offer free estimates, not free quotes.

A full quote takes time, why should anyone be expected to do this for free, some jobs such as solar installations I ask questions and give a verbel estimate based on what they require, if they are happy with this price I would then be prepared to attend site for a full survey and then give a quotation, if I visited every site I get enquiries for to give out quotes, I would not have time for installations, the installer has to gauge the probability of getting the work before he/she comits to spend too much time quoting, we are running a business to make money after all.

Most of my work is new build, I usually price the job from drawings, but experience has shown me that estimating is the safer way, drawings never let you see any potential problems, it is impossible to know your exact pipe runs from drawings, also by the time you come to do the job things may of changed especially bathroom layouts, which may take more time than originally allowed, it is a case of trust between the client and the installers, most of the new build I install comes in at the price I estimated.

 

[topgazza]

Fair points billy bob...

I do think that a lot of media consumer advice to get written quotes for everything is to blame. Even medium sized companies can't afford to do that. For a sole trader it is just impractical...which is the point many are making here.

Until the business is won of course...which is all I would ask for.

 

[Agile]

..I would hate to say yes and then find when I get the written quote I disagree with some of the work descriptions.

A provisional written quote is the bare minimum I would expect...until formally accepting. How can I compare quotes if I have nothing formal in writing so I can compare eggs for eggs?

I am sorry, I made my previous comment on what you said above without realising that you would probably take it out of context without taking into account what I had said some while before.

I would give a verbal quote on the telephone or at a site visit and if the customer said thats acceptable then I would give him a written quote to consider and then sign as accepted.

But your quoted passage says that you would not accept a verbal quote as an initial indication of the price to be confirmed in a full quotation if its acceptable.

For all installation work I would always give a fixed price quotation so that the customer can compare it with other quotes.

Tony

 

[topgazza]

I apologise Agile...you're quite correct. I was multi tasking with work......and I hadn't had my first morning cuppa....

 

[Nige F]

[quote="Corgigrouch";p="797633]
Do you really think that your employer sells your labour out at the same rate that he pays you?...Dream on.[/quote] Not at all, I`m talking about 1 man bands, not large , even small companies .. £600 a day on the back of being a Corgi Straight in the sky rocket ....then taxed @ year end . Nearly as lucrative as being a GP.

 

[Softus]

Softus...I think thats what I'm saying...there should be an industry wide expectation.

Oh, perhaps I misunderstood - sorry.

However, I disagree. The universe is naturally entropic, and your proposed regularisation ain't never gonna happen.

I appreciate that refusing to give a written quote when someone is just gathering various prices is a choice you make as a businessman.

Indeed so, but I prefer to think of it as a service that I choose not to offer, rather than something I'm "refusing" to do.

But surely if you got the job on a verbal quote...which was my last point that you didn't understand...and having read my words I can see why .....any request for a written quote before starting is not then unreasonable.

Not unreasonable, no - just not an option.

I would suggest that in todays world the people who provide that written quote on getting the job win more business than they lose.

Then I sincerely wish them the best of luck in that line of business - it doesn't interest me I'm afraid.

As for allowing someone to start work based on an estimate billy bob.....thats fine if you state to the customer that there are a number of unknowns so a fixed quote is not possible...and they accept that risk...which is where this comes to a head.

In the interests of good customer relations, even the people who don't quote will find a way to alleviate the anxiety of not knowing what the final cost is going to be. However, working out a fixed-price quotation, and calculating a suitable contingency, is something that I simply won't undertake without charging for it.

Why is it that people feel they are being ripped off by the plumbing trade...accurate or not...but that is a clear perception that every poll says that is what "people" feel.

There are several reasons.

Its because of the cowboys out there who only provide estimates because they are lazy, incompetent and don't know how to estimate a job, or just looking for an opportunity to make a few extra quid on top. Maybe a minority for sure but it happens more often than is healthy.

Well, that's one of the reasons.

Another is that unexpected plumbing bills always hurt. As I mentioned earlier, if everyone spent a fixed amount per year on maintenance, and went about depreciating the pipework on their property and thus replacing it before it wore out, then there'd be markedly fewer leaks and breakdowns. But we just don't do that, do we?

The same applies to car maintenance, but to a lesser degree, because an awful lot of people have their cars regularly serviced. But a great many don't.

If you state, which you should to give the cust at least some idea, the estimate may vary by, say, 20 % how often do you think it does precisely that ?

Quite a lot of the time. I'm not sure that I get your point here.

How often do people charge less than the estimate ?

Ah, I see where you're heading now. Well, this happens less often, because most estimates are, whether implicitly or explicitly, based on the premise that unforeseen things are, by definition, unforeseeable.

Not accusing you of that...as if...but why should the customer take all the risk.

Because it's their property and their problem. After all, they could choose not to have the work done.

once again, good paperwork protects the installer as much as the customer. Good practice is always to build a decent risk budget in any work....size of budget depends on the complexity of the job...say 5% for a straightforward boiler like for like swap....more for a whole house heating job.

A fair comment. One could, for example, heave on some contingency on the suspicion that something unforeseeable will happen, but that feels wrong to me, and I don't do what feels wrong.

But if someone who claims to be experienced can't even do that then they really shouldn't be let out without their guardian.

Hmm, I see. And yet there's no law against it, AFAIK.

One thing I do know as a fact...and I fully understand the pressures...that if there were less legal cases involving installers and customers then your insurance rates would drop. Its all about no surprises....

I don't find my insurance premium to be prohibitively expensive, and it's just another overhead. Any reduction would benefit the customer, not me, and vice versa.

Don't get me wrong, topgazza, you've made some excellent observations and, as a punter, I empathise. However, the bottom line is that I can afford to be complacent. The only person who ever pays for my exceptionally rare mistakes is me, and with that approach I find that the work comes rollercoasting in, so until it stops doing that, I won't be spending any of my own time on quotations.

 

[Corgigrouch]

[quote="Corgigrouch";p="797633]
Do you really think that your employer sells your labour out at the same rate that he pays you?...Dream on.

Not at all, I`m talking about 1 man bands, not large , even small companies .. £600 a day on the back of being a Corgi Straight in the sky rocket ....then taxed @ year end . Nearly as lucrative as being a GP.[/quote]

As you are aware, a one man band is as much a business as a multinational.. they all have to make a profit... Are you saying that a one man band MUST make a lower profit margin on its work than a big company simply because it is a one man band? Take out all of the unseen expenses and overheads and you are left with a wage... You know that the job doesn't finish when we have left the customer... then it is off to the office to do the paper work, chase the kit for tomorrows work, deal with the tax man, the VAT man too, prepare quotes, talk to the pest from the yellow pages, book more training, visit customers and sometimes when time permits, find time for family and friends. Perhaps you'd like to explain to a GP how you feel that he is overpaid next time that you need to visit him

 

[doitall]

Client phones up with full refurb jobbie, spends 5 hours going through all the details, at the end of which I can say, "That'll be £185.K gov, gissa nod mate when ya ready and I'll ave a geezer round in no time"

What really happens is they send a set of drawing into the office with instructions, if interested in the job we will then spend several days designing a system thats taylored to their instructions, and submit a price with our terms and conditions.

 

[Agile]

[. Perhaps you'd like to explain to a GP how you feel that he is overpaid next time that you need to visit him

Er... GPs dont make home visits any more!

They just sub it out to the call out guys!

We ought to do that for plumbing!

I could transfer all my after 5 pm calls to Reactfast!

Tony

 

[tonybhoy]

I almost always give a written quote.Unless I knew someone then I wouldn't instruct a job on the basis of a 'verbal quote'.

Have loads of quotes on the PC so I simply adapt one and post it out,makes life easier but sometimes even writing everything down wrt terms and conditions results in a 'lost cheque book moment' when the time comes to pay the balance or deposit.

Sometimes you just can't win whatever you do.

Life would be so much easier if you didn't have to deal with customers

 

[Agile]

I once gave someone a written quote for something only to notice later that I had given them the standard costs for a simpler job!

I retrieved the situation by discussing a different specification at the higher cost!

Tony

 

[n2o]

I give written quotes for larger jobs, but this includes a specification of the work to be done so that we both know where we stand.

I have just been to look at a leaking lead pipe behind a bath. Something I haven’t seen for a long time. The only lead pipe I tend to see in properties these days is the incoming service before the stop tap.

Anyway, when this guy phoned me I assumed it must be behind an old cast iron bath, but I was wrong. He had had a new bathroom fitted and tiled in about five years ago and the installers (clowns) had left the existing lead pipe work in place and wiped dodgy soldered joints to copper on the branch pipes. It’s one of these joints that is now leaking.

I asked him if it was a reputable firm that had carried out this work and he said that at the time he thought they were, but he believed they had now gone out of business. I don’t know if they gave him a written quote, but like he said, he didn’t know that the lead should have been replaced.

Who knows, someone else may have priced the job slightly higher but not got it because they where pricing to replace the lead. This customer is going to have to pay again to have a very awkward and what should have been an unnecessary job done tomorrow.

Quotes, estimates and specifications are grey areas!

Talking of grey areas and quotes, it’s not just plumbers that don’t like being tied down. I’m currently trying to get blood out of a stone with my attempts to get a price for ACS reassessments.