Why neutral at other switch?

[ericmark]

I want to convert light switch to extra low voltage, I can't reach ceiling rose, need a ladder, my son has promised to bring a ladder, but wanted if possible to thread new cable before he arrives, removed landing switch to check first before getting new two gang switch, but it does not seem right.

The wiring at switch seems to show school boy method used, but when I moved in and CU changed found at bottom switch wrong neutral used, it was a 4 gang switch, hall, landing, back flood lights, and front outside lights. But the way it seems wired, there would be no neutral at switch.

So having a senior moment, trying to work out as wired how there were two neutrals at the other switch?

I need to try and renew cable lamp to top switch, want three core and earth, well suppose no need for earth with extra low voltage, but think should still renew cable!

Idea is relay can be switched either with wall switch or phone, and centre bulb or 4 outer bulbs, centre one colour changing, if I can have outer 4 also switched from hall that's a bonus, but it not then no real problem.

But why two neutrals at the hall 4 gang switch, does not seem to make sense, house now all RCBO so the two neutrals being wrong caused the lights RCBO to trip, so sure they are neutrals.

Just having a senior moment!

 

[JohnW2]

.... but when I moved in and CU changed found at bottom switch wrong neutral used, it was a 4 gang switch, hall, landing, back flood lights, and front outside lights. But the way it seems wired, there would be no neutral at switch. ... So having a senior moment, trying to work out as wired how there were two neutrals at the other switch?... But why two neutrals at the hall 4 gang switch, does not seem to make sense, ....

This is all a bit confused/confusing given that you have shown us only a photo of the landing switch, which has no neutrals at all - where is the photo of the hall one you are concerned about?

If the hall switch utilised 'neutral looped at switches wiring' then, given that it is/was a 4-gang switch, it would perhaps not be surprising that there would be more than one neutral (maybe more than one circuit) 'looping' there, would it?

Kind \regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

I want to convert light switch to extra low voltage, I can't reach ceiling rose, need a ladder, my son has promised to bring a ladder, but wanted if possible to thread new cable before he arrives, removed landing switch to check first before getting new two gang switch, but it does not seem right.

View attachment 245210 The wiring at switch seems to show school boy method used, View attachment 245212 but when I moved in and CU changed found at bottom switch wrong neutral used, it was a 4 gang switch, hall, landing, back flood lights, and front outside lights. But the way it seems wired, there would be no neutral at switch.

So having a senior moment, trying to work out as wired how there were two neutrals at the other switch?

I need to try and renew cable lamp to top switch, want three core and earth, well suppose no need for earth with extra low voltage, but think should still renew cable!

Idea is relay can be switched either with wall switch or phone, and centre bulb or 4 outer bulbs, centre one colour changing, if I can have outer 4 also switched from hall that's a bonus, but it not then no real problem.

But why two neutrals at the hall 4 gang switch, does not seem to make sense, house now all RCBO so the two neutrals being wrong caused the lights RCBO to trip, so sure they are neutrals.

Just having a senior moment!

I guess you have this:

Grey ovals represent a T&E or 3C&E.
But without seeing the other switch and the ceiling rose it is just that... A guess

 

[ericmark]

I clearly need to test, seems odd to me. Job one is test relay, make sure it works like I think it should, but no can't be wired as @SUNRAY shows, there is a block connector in switch.

Once son arrives with ladder I can look at ceiling rose, but pain when can't reach ceiling rose.

 

[JohnW2]

I guess you have this: ...

That's just the standard 'old school' method of 2-way light switching (which was the 'only school' of 2-way switching when I was being brought up!) - but that, per se, doesn't involve any neutrals at all at either switch, so doesn't help in relation to eric's question/problem, does it?

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

but no can't be wired as @SUNRAY shows, there is a block connector in switch.

Which I marked as 'JOINT'

 

[EFLImpudence]

SUNRAY shows, there is a block connector in switch.

SUNRAY has marked that as "JOINT".

I must say I don't know what the problem is.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Too late.

 

[SUNRAY]

That's just the standard 'old school' method of 2-way light switching (which was the 'only school' of 2-way switching when I was being brought up!) - but that, per se, doesn't involve any neutrals at all at either switch, so doesn't help in relation to eric's question/problem, does it?

Kind Regards, John

TBH I started losing my way in OP with 2 neutrals in other switch (or is it 2 SL's?), relay, neutral, ELV, colours...
At this point I'm simply trying to help with identifying what's existing. Then I'll go from there.
I don't know why it's called 'schoolboy method', as you say it was the ONLY WAY for many years. First time I knowingly encountered 'conversion method' I converted it to the proper way then worked it out when I got home

 

[SUNRAY]

Too late.

This is usually my follow up.

 

[JohnW2]

TBH I started losing my way in OP with 2 neutrals in other switch (or is is SL's?), relay, neutral, ELV, colours...

I presume that eric 'knows better' than to confuse neutrals and S/Ls ("because they are blue (or black)") - but, as I said at the start, I agree that the OP is both confused and confusing - and I have no idea what eric's question actually is, nor why he didn't show us a photo of the switch which apparently IS the problem in his mind!

Hopefully things might become a bit clarified in time

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

I must say I don't know what the problem is.

No. I lost my way too.

 

[sparkwright]

That's just the standard 'old school' method of 2-way light switching (which was the 'only school' of 2-way switching when I was being brought up!) - but that, per se, doesn't involve any neutrals at all at either switch, so doesn't help in relation to eric's question/problem, does it?

Kind Regards, John

There's ALWAYS been more than one method of two way switching - although I think some methods have have come about in latter years where people have tried to rewire houses by re-using narrow tubes and trying to drop minimal wires down them.

I think years ago I worked out there were around twelve different ways of doing two way switching.

The so-called old school method relates to that very common wiring diagram with the main feed in the first common, and the live to the light in the second common. That kind of diagram always ends up in text books and even on this forum - yet in reality it's seldom done like that, especially now.

 

[sparkwright]

While we are waiting for more photos/clarification from Eric, I too am not seeing any neutrals as yet.

Whether there is some confusion that the wires in the connector block are supposed to be neutrals, this is not the case - and all the wires at the switch (excluding the earths) are most definitely all lives and not neutrals.

Using an additional connector block to join the two lives was a fairly common method back in the day, and Sunray's diagram shows this very nicely.

Not sure why it was felt Sunray's diagram wasn't helpful - I think it is likely this may be the arrangement Eric may have.

 

[JohnW2]

There's ALWAYS been more than one method of two way switching - although I think some methods have have come about in latter years where people have tried to rewire houses by re-using narrow tubes and trying to drop minimal wires down them. ... The so-called old school method relates to that very common wiring diagram with the main feed in the first common, and the live to the light in the second common. That kind of diagram always ends up in text books and even on this forum - yet in reality it's seldom done like that, especially now.

It's obviously true that there are many ways in which it theoretically could be done but, speaking personally, I had never seen any method other than the 'old school' one until maybe 25 years ago.

... Not sure why it was felt Sunray's diagram wasn't helpful - I think it is likely this may be the arrangement Eric may have.

Other than for his addition of the 'Joint' (in the L at one switch), it didn't seem (at least, not to me) any different from what eric had already posted in his OP, namely ...

Kind Regards, John