Wood burner instalation

[Richard Knight]

Now this may seem like a stupid question.....but I'm going to ask anyway.

I have a Godin stove with a 125mm exit for the flue to attach to. Am I right in assuming that the expectation then is to continue with a 125mm liner (flexible or rigid) rather than for example moving up to a 150 or 180mm size (the latter seeming to be all the local DIY stores here in France stock in flexible liners....). I can though get 125mm rigid tubing and my chimney is straight.

----------------------------------------------
UPDATE: Answered it myself....125mm throughout it is.

 

[HelenM]

We are looking at installing a multifuel burner to run our central heating, as the price of oil has gone though the roof.
We now have enough leaflets about them to keep us warm though the winter, but they have left me a bit confused.
I notice that Freddie has a Harmony and we were considering the Harmony3. It is quite expensive, is it worth the extra?
Any advice would be great.

 

[oilman]

All the information you require would be available from Euroheat for the asking, however, they want their stoves to work and so you would be advised to go to one of their retail outlets. Euroheat run in-depth courses for anyone handling their stoves, and the end result is to make sure there aren't any problems for the user.

The Harmony 3 is a big beast. Do you need this, or are you putting it in because the Harmony 1 will look small in the fireplace? This is number 1 problem for users. They end up buying a stove that is so large, people feel cold most of the time because it gives so much heat it rarely gets cold enough outside to allow it's use without cooking everybody, so you can't light it.

 

[Freddie]

All the information you require would be available from Euroheat for the asking, however, they want their stoves to work and so you would be advised to go to one of their retail outlets. Euroheat run in-depth courses for anyone handling their stoves, and the end result is to make sure there aren't any problems for the user.

The Harmony 3 is a big beast. Do you need this, or are you putting it in because the Harmony 1 will look small in the fireplace? This is number 1 problem for users. They end up buying a stove that is so large, people feel cold most of the time because it gives so much heat it rarely gets cold enough outside to allow it's use without cooking everybody, so you can't light it.

A heating appliance isnt rated by it's size as even the biggest Stove can only give out as much heat as the fuel it is burning.

i.e.

A big stove with a small amount of fuel burning will give out the required heat and wont cook you.

A small Stove packed to the limit with fuel may not give out the amount of heat you require as it is too small for the room.

On any heating appliance of any kind it is best to have one that is MORE than adequate for the rate for the room/house just incase you want to expand and also if it is only just big enough you will be constantly feeding it, whereas if it is more than big enough it doesnt mean it will be roaring away as they are quite controllable, and will only burn at the rate YOU want meaning they will only give out the heat you set them at.

 

[oilman]

All the information you require would be available from Euroheat for the asking, however, they want their stoves to work and so you would be advised to go to one of their retail outlets. Euroheat run in-depth courses for anyone handling their stoves, and the end result is to make sure there aren't any problems for the user.

The Harmony 3 is a big beast. Do you need this, or are you putting it in because the Harmony 1 will look small in the fireplace? This is number 1 problem for users. They end up buying a stove that is so large, people feel cold most of the time because it gives so much heat it rarely gets cold enough outside to allow it's use without cooking everybody, so you can't light it.

A heating appliance isnt rated by it's size as even the biggest Stove can only give out as much heat as the fuel it is burning.

i.e.

A big stove with a small amount of fuel burning will give out the required heat and wont cook you.

A small Stove packed to the limit with fuel may not give out the amount of heat you require as it is too small for the room.

On any heating appliance of any kind it is best to have one that is MORE than adequate for the rate for the room/house just incase you want to expand and also if it is only just big enough you will be constantly feeding it, whereas if it is more than big enough it doesnt mean it will be roaring away as they are quite controllable, and will only burn at the rate YOU want meaning they will only give out the heat you set them at.

This is not quite correct, there are bed sizes to consider, there is the heat loss (output) from the stove which will determine it's minimum burning rate in order to maintain the temperature needed for combustion. I go round many places and ALL the ones that have problems are the ones with stoves that are TOO BIG!!!!!!! Double the surface area at a particular temperature=double the heat output, you can't just reduce the temperature, especially with wood, or you will be sending tar up the flue. There are only a few days a year when you need to run at full tilt.

 

[salem2000]

It has to do with ANY flue!!! If the terra cotta ones comply, fine, if they don't, not fine. If it's new build, you can build it out of anything that complies with regs and suits the appliance. If it's an existing chimney and it's 100 years old it probably won't comply or suit the appliance so you line it with something that does. It is irrelevant whether the thing is built of plasterboard, sugar paper, Andrex rolls or anything else you like to mention, IF IT DOESN'T MEET THE RELEVANT SPEC, IT DON'T COMPLY, and if you fit it you commit a criminal offence. That's the legal position, but you can do what you like if it doesn't concern you. However when someone asks for advice I expect to give them information which I would give if I was going to charge them for it, and I then might glance on the non-legal alternatives.

You asked me where the relevant requirements were, I've shown you, if you cannot or will not accept it that is your responsibility.

Its not that i can or cant accept anything its just that reading through the stuff you referred to again i cant see where it says that stoves of anykind HAVE to be installed with a stainless steel flue liner in any chimney and in the instructions of my November 2004 Efel Harmony it says nothing of REGULATIONS just recomendations.

Check out the question "Can I fit it myself?".......... Euroheat

Building Regulations - Any installation of a heating appliance, or modification to a chimney such as relining, has to be carried out in accordance with Building Regulations (Part J in England and Wales and F in Scotland). In England and Wales there is also a requirement that Building Control Consent is obtained for such work unless the work is carried out by a Competent Person. For solid fuel and wood burning appliances a Competent Person is someone who is registered with HETAS.

 

[Freddie]

All the information you require would be available from Euroheat for the asking, however, they want their stoves to work and so you would be advised to go to one of their retail outlets. Euroheat run in-depth courses for anyone handling their stoves, and the end result is to make sure there aren't any problems for the user.

The Harmony 3 is a big beast. Do you need this, or are you putting it in because the Harmony 1 will look small in the fireplace? This is number 1 problem for users. They end up buying a stove that is so large, people feel cold most of the time because it gives so much heat it rarely gets cold enough outside to allow it's use without cooking everybody, so you can't light it.

A heating appliance isnt rated by it's size as even the biggest Stove can only give out as much heat as the fuel it is burning.

i.e.

A big stove with a small amount of fuel burning will give out the required heat and wont cook you.

A small Stove packed to the limit with fuel may not give out the amount of heat you require as it is too small for the room.

On any heating appliance of any kind it is best to have one that is MORE than adequate for the rate for the room/house just incase you want to expand and also if it is only just big enough you will be constantly feeding it, whereas if it is more than big enough it doesnt mean it will be roaring away as they are quite controllable, and will only burn at the rate YOU want meaning they will only give out the heat you set them at.

This is not quite correct, there are bed sizes to consider, there is the heat loss (output) from the stove which will determine it's minimum burning rate in order to maintain the temperature needed for combustion. I go round many places and ALL the ones that have problems are the ones with stoves that are TOO BIG!!!!!!! Double the surface area at a particular temperature=double the heat output, you can't just reduce the temperature, especially with wood, or you will be sending tar up the flue. There are only a few days a year when you need to run at full tilt.

I dont disagree Oilman but one correction there --no matter how big your applience you cannot double its output if you only burning a small amount of fuel--which was my point you can only give out what you are actually burning in BTU's or KILOJOULES whatever they are called now.

 

[Freddie]

It has to do with ANY flue!!! If the terra cotta ones comply, fine, if they don't, not fine. If it's new build, you can build it out of anything that complies with regs and suits the appliance. If it's an existing chimney and it's 100 years old it probably won't comply or suit the appliance so you line it with something that does. It is irrelevant whether the thing is built of plasterboard, sugar paper, Andrex rolls or anything else you like to mention, IF IT DOESN'T MEET THE RELEVANT SPEC, IT DON'T COMPLY, and if you fit it you commit a criminal offence. That's the legal position, but you can do what you like if it doesn't concern you. However when someone asks for advice I expect to give them information which I would give if I was going to charge them for it, and I then might glance on the non-legal alternatives.

You asked me where the relevant requirements were, I've shown you, if you cannot or will not accept it that is your responsibility.

Its not that i can or cant accept anything its just that reading through the stuff you referred to again i cant see where it says that stoves of anykind HAVE to be installed with a stainless steel flue liner in any chimney and in the instructions of my November 2004 Efel Harmony it says nothing of REGULATIONS just recomendations.

Check out the question "Can I fit it myself?".......... Euroheat

Building Regulations - Any installation of a heating appliance, or modification to a chimney such as relining, has to be carried out in accordance with Building Regulations (Part J in England and Wales and F in Scotland). In England and Wales there is also a requirement that Building Control Consent is obtained for such work unless the work is carried out by a Competent Person. For solid fuel and wood burning appliances a Competent Person is someone who is registered with HETAS.

Salem if that is true then i strongly suggest that EFEL get ther house in order and say what are regulations and what arent in their instructions on fitting their stoves

 

[Richard Knight]

Hi Freddie / Oilman,

Finally I've got to the stage of actually lining the chimney - everything is in it's place but I have one niggling concern. The store which I purchased the pipe from said I simply needed to slot one 1m length of pipe into another as I thread it up the chimney. As we will have 12 metres of stainless steel pipework that's a reasonable weight. Without each piece being physically joined to another (fire cement or screws presumably) 11 metres of the 12 metre total length will simply rest on the 'T' coming out of the back of the stove. To me this seems a lot of weight....but maybe I'm being overly cautious?

Should the 1 metres sections of pipework be physically sealed/joined together in some way and if so, what's the best way in your opinion?

Many thanks,

Richard

 

[Freddie]

How have you got 11 metre's of chimney where do you live in a block of flats on the ground floor????????

Thats a 36ft chimney amazing !

 

[Richard Knight]

Repeated entry - deleted it

 

[Freddie]

I dont know how heavy that would be and thats some chimney i dont know on this but i wouldnt at all be surprised that that length of chimney may not work with your stove as the exhaust gases may start to cool befoe they reach the top which means that the stove wont work properly.

Best thing you can do is see the instructions on what length of chimney is maximum permitted for your stove to work--it should tell you in your stove info or call the manufacturers

 

[Richard Knight]

Hi Freddie - thanks for that. Fingers crossed it will work OK although I'm basing that on their having been a previous stove there which we are replacing really. The manufacturer suggests a minimum of 6m of liner...we're 11m! We'll see, I guess I can always put some sort of extractor fan up to help draw.

The initial problem though is the joining or not of the rigid pipe. From reading around I'm going to give it a go with stainless steel rivets which I'm about to go and buy.

 

[Freddie]

Hi Freddie - thanks for that. Fingers crossed it will work OK although I'm basing that on their having been a previous stove there which we are replacing really. The manufacturer suggests a minimum of 6m of liner...we're 11m! We'll see, I guess I can always put some sort of extractor fan up to help draw.

The initial problem though is the joining or not of the rigid pipe. From reading around I'm going to give it a go with stainless steel rivets which I'm about to go and buy.

But if it is really heavy you will have to suppot it at the top so it is basically hanging there and if you want you can fill in around the liner with insulating compound which is really insulation and weak sand and cement mix when you have sealed the bottom of the chimney around the liner of course

 

[oilman]

Well, if you talk to Euroheat, they're not too keen on insulation surrounding a liner. That's point 1.

Point 2 is, the higher the flue the bigger the draught, a 200 ft chimney is great to pull a fire, lots of factories did it. the problems arise with short ones, not long ones.

Point 3, steel liners are usually hung from the top. It's very handy, you dont need any clever supports, the chimney does it all.

Point 4, as Salem and I keep saying (though I sometomes wonder it's worth the effort) flues are covered by building regs, so you should get BC approval unless fitted by HETAS company.

Point 5, we've gat a 35ft chimney, and there are lots in England that are bigger than this.

Point 6, flue liners are, I think, twin wall for wood stoves. You can see if you could get 11metres up your chimney by tying them together in a bundle and lifting them above your head. If you can't do it, don't try shoving it up the chimney.