Hi there, Could someone tell me what to do with an old wooden floor with many scratch marks? Not planning to replace it, but want to make it presentable.
Cheers,
jay4444
Cheers,
jay4444
Worn wooden floor
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People are gonna think I'm "daft" for suggesting this but...
I just finished putting some 23 percent hydrochloric acid based toilet bowl cleaner on some oak hardwood just to make certain that the acid wouldn't harm the wood. If you don't want to take my word for it, take any piece of wood to a bricklayer and ask him to put some muriatic acid on the wood. Muriatic acid is about 30% hydrochloric acid, and bricklayers use it for cleaning dried brick mortar off brickwork. Muriatic acid will certainly be very much stronger than any acidic cleaner you'd ever find for sale in a hardware store.
If your floor looks "worn out", it could simply be that you're regular method of cleaning isn't getting the dirt out of the wood because the hard particles of sand and grit and what not are embedded right into the relatively soft surface of the wood and regular cleaning won't dislodge them. However, an acid could dissolve them.
I would get an acidic cleaner (over here we have a product called "CLR" for removing Calcium, Lime and Rust). You may have something similar. Try using that to clean a small area of your floor, and see if it makes any difference. I expect it will because I've had similar experiences with dirt embedded in acrylic floor finishes which I remove quickly and easily using the aforementioned toilet bowl cleaner.
If you can't find a fairly strong general purpose acidic cleaner, look at the toilet bowl cleaners in your hardware store's cleaning aisle and see if you can get one with at least 10 % hydrochloric acid, and 15% would be better. If there are no hydrochloric acid based toilet bowl cleaners there, then get the one with the highest phosphoric acid content you can find. If you can't find one that's at least 15 % phosphoric acid, then don't waste your money on super weak acids. In that case, I'd be inclined to just buy a little muriatic acid off your local bricklayer and use that just to see how much of a difference it makes on your floor.
Obviously, rinse the acid off the floor well after cleaning the floor. Maybe just do one small area to see what you think, and post back. It might not make any difference, but I certainly think it's well worth a shot, and that's what I'd be trying if it were my own wood floor.
I just finished putting some 23 percent hydrochloric acid based toilet bowl cleaner on some oak hardwood just to make certain that the acid wouldn't harm the wood. If you don't want to take my word for it, take any piece of wood to a bricklayer and ask him to put some muriatic acid on the wood. Muriatic acid is about 30% hydrochloric acid, and bricklayers use it for cleaning dried brick mortar off brickwork. Muriatic acid will certainly be very much stronger than any acidic cleaner you'd ever find for sale in a hardware store.
If your floor looks "worn out", it could simply be that you're regular method of cleaning isn't getting the dirt out of the wood because the hard particles of sand and grit and what not are embedded right into the relatively soft surface of the wood and regular cleaning won't dislodge them. However, an acid could dissolve them.
I would get an acidic cleaner (over here we have a product called "CLR" for removing Calcium, Lime and Rust). You may have something similar. Try using that to clean a small area of your floor, and see if it makes any difference. I expect it will because I've had similar experiences with dirt embedded in acrylic floor finishes which I remove quickly and easily using the aforementioned toilet bowl cleaner.
If you can't find a fairly strong general purpose acidic cleaner, look at the toilet bowl cleaners in your hardware store's cleaning aisle and see if you can get one with at least 10 % hydrochloric acid, and 15% would be better. If there are no hydrochloric acid based toilet bowl cleaners there, then get the one with the highest phosphoric acid content you can find. If you can't find one that's at least 15 % phosphoric acid, then don't waste your money on super weak acids. In that case, I'd be inclined to just buy a little muriatic acid off your local bricklayer and use that just to see how much of a difference it makes on your floor.
Obviously, rinse the acid off the floor well after cleaning the floor. Maybe just do one small area to see what you think, and post back. It might not make any difference, but I certainly think it's well worth a shot, and that's what I'd be trying if it were my own wood floor.
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Actually, it occurs to me that there may be a better way of cleaning the floor.
What I'm suggesting is that you try cleaning it with white spirits (paint thinner) in a small area first. Use enough paint thinner so that the wood turns dark as it absorbs the white spirits. THEN, when the wood is still a dark color from having absorbed the white spirits, use the acid based cleaner.
By allowing the wood to absorb the white spirits first, you prevent the wood from absorbing any water from the acid (or any acid). You don't need the wood to absorb the acid cuz the dirt you wanna dissolve is right on the surface. After cleaning the surface with acid, rinse that acid off with clean rinse water. The previously absorbed white spirits will prevent the wood from absorbing any of the subsequent acid or water you're using on the floor to clean it. Then, simply allow the white spirits to evaporate from the wood. It will evaporate completely without leaving a residue. (But, it will smell a bit, so provide good ventilation to remove the paint thinner fumes.)
Then, reserve judgement until you see what that wood looks like when it's dry.
What I'm suggesting is that you try cleaning it with white spirits (paint thinner) in a small area first. Use enough paint thinner so that the wood turns dark as it absorbs the white spirits. THEN, when the wood is still a dark color from having absorbed the white spirits, use the acid based cleaner.
By allowing the wood to absorb the white spirits first, you prevent the wood from absorbing any water from the acid (or any acid). You don't need the wood to absorb the acid cuz the dirt you wanna dissolve is right on the surface. After cleaning the surface with acid, rinse that acid off with clean rinse water. The previously absorbed white spirits will prevent the wood from absorbing any of the subsequent acid or water you're using on the floor to clean it. Then, simply allow the white spirits to evaporate from the wood. It will evaporate completely without leaving a residue. (But, it will smell a bit, so provide good ventilation to remove the paint thinner fumes.)
Then, reserve judgement until you see what that wood looks like when it's dry.
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never mind the fumes from thinners! when hydrochloric acid reacts it can give off poisonous chlorine gass!!!
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noseall:
Mixing bleach with any acid will produce chlorine gas.
http://www.chemistryquestion.com/English/Questions/ChemistryInDailyLife/3c_bleach_cleaner.html
Using hydrochloric acid on wood or mixing it with paint thinner doesn't create any additional health risks, and it doesn't produce chlorine gas.
Otherwise, there would be prominent warnings on all bottles of hydrochloric acid based toilet bowl cleaners and jugs of muriatic acid advising people not to use the product for it's intended purpose.
(because of the poisonous chlorine gas that would be produced)
Mixing bleach with any acid will produce chlorine gas.
http://www.chemistryquestion.com/English/Questions/ChemistryInDailyLife/3c_bleach_cleaner.html
Using hydrochloric acid on wood or mixing it with paint thinner doesn't create any additional health risks, and it doesn't produce chlorine gas.
Otherwise, there would be prominent warnings on all bottles of hydrochloric acid based toilet bowl cleaners and jugs of muriatic acid advising people not to use the product for it's intended purpose.
(because of the poisonous chlorine gas that would be produced)
don't some people clean their floors with bleach?
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"don't some people clean their floors with bleach?"
Well, there might be some, but I expect few would use straight bleach, and those that do would use it very diluted. Even bleach right in the jug is only a 6.25 % solution of NaOCl in water, so diluting it 10:1 to clean with, and then rinsing that cleaning solution off the floor would result in very little bleach remaining.
Also, NaOCl is inherantly unstable. Bleach spontaneously breaks down to form salt water with the release of oxygen atoms. Ozone (O3) and hydrogen peroxide (HOOH) all work the same way. They're inherantly unstable and spontaneously break down to form a more stable compound with the release of a lone oxygen atom in the process. (And, I'm not a chemist, but it's my understanding that it's the high reactivity of lone oxygen atoms that breaks down dye molecules and other organic molecules that results in the death of germs and mildew and algae and such.
So, I expect leaving bleach on a floor to dry would result in your ending up with salt crystals on the floor, but I don't know how long that would take.
Well, there might be some, but I expect few would use straight bleach, and those that do would use it very diluted. Even bleach right in the jug is only a 6.25 % solution of NaOCl in water, so diluting it 10:1 to clean with, and then rinsing that cleaning solution off the floor would result in very little bleach remaining.
Also, NaOCl is inherantly unstable. Bleach spontaneously breaks down to form salt water with the release of oxygen atoms. Ozone (O3) and hydrogen peroxide (HOOH) all work the same way. They're inherantly unstable and spontaneously break down to form a more stable compound with the release of a lone oxygen atom in the process. (And, I'm not a chemist, but it's my understanding that it's the high reactivity of lone oxygen atoms that breaks down dye molecules and other organic molecules that results in the death of germs and mildew and algae and such.
So, I expect leaving bleach on a floor to dry would result in your ending up with salt crystals on the floor, but I don't know how long that would take.
the reason i'm saying this is, i was asked to remove some cement based grout from a quarry tile floor in a downstairs w.c. and nearly puked at the reaction i got whilst using "brickcleanse" (a type of patio/brick cleaning acid)
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Ahhh. I think I can shed some light on what happened.
Urine starts off being acidic and has very little smell. There are different explanations from different "experts" on the internet on what happens, but the end result is that that urine dries to form alkali salts that are phosfluorescent (glow in the dark) under UV light. (Which is why carpet cleaning professionals will use a black light to locate animal and human urine stains on carpets and upholstery.)
Apparantly, it's those alkaline salts that cause the smell we associate with urine, and the odor they release is dependant on the amount of moisture and humidity. The reason why dogs will repeatedly "mark their territory" in the same spots is because with each marking, the moisture from the new urine increases the amount of smell from the existing alkaline salts, and deposits the urine needed for more alkaline salts to form there.
Here: go to this web site:
http://cleanfax.com/index.asp
Cleanfax is the web site of the Cleaning & Maintenance Management Institute which is an organization established to further the goals of the cleaning and maintenance professionals.
Once there, type "black light" (without the quotes) in the red search engine on the top left of the web page
Then, in the red search results on the right, click on the article entitled "The truth about cats and dogs".
On the page you get to, you will see a red box entitled "Related Information/ What makes urine smell?". If you click on that link, you'll get the following:
“You have to understand the molecular structure of what it is we smell in order to be able to destroy it,” says John Heffron, marketing and sales manager, Thornell Corporation, Penfield, NY. “Once you diagnose what these sources are, then you can find an agent that addresses them specifically.”
Fresh urine typically has little odor. The offensive urine smell begins once it starts to decay and release ammonia gas. The second level of decay releases mercaptan (a foul-smelling organic compound), which comes from the same family of odor as skunk spray.
Natural bacteria attack the urine as it breaks down, digesting the urea, sodium chloride, lipids and phosphorus- and potassium-containing urine. The bacteria leaves behind phosphate salts, which stick to the carpet, making it extremely difficult to clean up.
Richard 'Bo' Bodo, an IICRC certified Journeyman cleaner and the Western Regional Manager for Nilodor, Bolivar, OH, notes that phosphor salts are the basis for several carpet problems.
“These salts are what release the odor, and they need heat and humidity to do that,” says Bodo. He says animals tend to urinate in the same spot, “every time adding heat and humidity to the salts already in the contaminated spot” and in turn it “releases an increasingly more pungent odor each time.”
He also notes that another problem with these is that while urine begins as an acid, the salts that remain are alkaline, and “if left unchecked they will strip the carpet of its red and blue dyes, thus leaving only the yellow dye, which looks like a urine stain and cannot be fixed unless it is re-dyed.”
end of quote
SO, I think what happened is that the strong acid you were using dissolved these highly alkaline salts left behind from the urine spilled onto the tile floor and absorbed into the grout, and it was the organic gasses released from the dissolving of those salts that made you gag.
Strange as it may sound, if you Google "urine salts", you'll find an awful lot of information about them. The reason why, of course, is because an awful lot of money is made removing pet accidents from people's carpets and upholstery by cleaning professionals, so an awful lot of money has been spent by the chemical companies to understanding them so that cleaners can be developed to remove them.
Urine starts off being acidic and has very little smell. There are different explanations from different "experts" on the internet on what happens, but the end result is that that urine dries to form alkali salts that are phosfluorescent (glow in the dark) under UV light. (Which is why carpet cleaning professionals will use a black light to locate animal and human urine stains on carpets and upholstery.)
Apparantly, it's those alkaline salts that cause the smell we associate with urine, and the odor they release is dependant on the amount of moisture and humidity. The reason why dogs will repeatedly "mark their territory" in the same spots is because with each marking, the moisture from the new urine increases the amount of smell from the existing alkaline salts, and deposits the urine needed for more alkaline salts to form there.
Here: go to this web site:
http://cleanfax.com/index.asp
Cleanfax is the web site of the Cleaning & Maintenance Management Institute which is an organization established to further the goals of the cleaning and maintenance professionals.
Once there, type "black light" (without the quotes) in the red search engine on the top left of the web page
Then, in the red search results on the right, click on the article entitled "The truth about cats and dogs".
On the page you get to, you will see a red box entitled "Related Information/ What makes urine smell?". If you click on that link, you'll get the following:
“You have to understand the molecular structure of what it is we smell in order to be able to destroy it,” says John Heffron, marketing and sales manager, Thornell Corporation, Penfield, NY. “Once you diagnose what these sources are, then you can find an agent that addresses them specifically.”
Fresh urine typically has little odor. The offensive urine smell begins once it starts to decay and release ammonia gas. The second level of decay releases mercaptan (a foul-smelling organic compound), which comes from the same family of odor as skunk spray.
Natural bacteria attack the urine as it breaks down, digesting the urea, sodium chloride, lipids and phosphorus- and potassium-containing urine. The bacteria leaves behind phosphate salts, which stick to the carpet, making it extremely difficult to clean up.
Richard 'Bo' Bodo, an IICRC certified Journeyman cleaner and the Western Regional Manager for Nilodor, Bolivar, OH, notes that phosphor salts are the basis for several carpet problems.
“These salts are what release the odor, and they need heat and humidity to do that,” says Bodo. He says animals tend to urinate in the same spot, “every time adding heat and humidity to the salts already in the contaminated spot” and in turn it “releases an increasingly more pungent odor each time.”
He also notes that another problem with these is that while urine begins as an acid, the salts that remain are alkaline, and “if left unchecked they will strip the carpet of its red and blue dyes, thus leaving only the yellow dye, which looks like a urine stain and cannot be fixed unless it is re-dyed.”
end of quote
SO, I think what happened is that the strong acid you were using dissolved these highly alkaline salts left behind from the urine spilled onto the tile floor and absorbed into the grout, and it was the organic gasses released from the dissolving of those salts that made you gag.
Strange as it may sound, if you Google "urine salts", you'll find an awful lot of information about them. The reason why, of course, is because an awful lot of money is made removing pet accidents from people's carpets and upholstery by cleaning professionals, so an awful lot of money has been spent by the chemical companies to understanding them so that cleaners can be developed to remove them.
so, what gas is given off when hydrochloric acid mixes with concrete/cement/lime etc.
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I really don't know. I think it's CO2.
The reason why I think that is because lime (CaO) is produced by heating limestone CaCO3 until the CO2 is driven off:
CaCO3 + heat = CaO + CO2
That lime can then be mixed with water in a highly exothermic reaction to form "hydrated lime", which is the lime we typically use for making brick mortar:
CaO + H2O = Ca(OH)2 = (a whole lotta heat)
And it's those two (OH) groups that make lime so highly caustic.
But, when lime is mixed with sand, portland cement and water to make the brick mortar, and the water wicks into the bricks or evaporates, a chemical reaction takes place...
The Ca(OH)2 in the brick mortar reacts with the CO2 in the air to form limestone again:
Ca(OH)2 + CO2 = CaCO3 + H2O
and the water molecule evaporates.
I know that much at least, because this is the process by which fresh concrete looses it's alkalinity during the first year or two after pouring. That is, when concrete is freshly poured, it'll be highly alkaline for a year or two before that alkalinity subsides, and it's the conversion of the hydrated lime Ca(OH)2 into limestone CaCO3 on the surface of the concrete that causes the alkalinity to subside by getting rid of those -OH groups that cause the alkalinity in the first place.
So, I think when you put HCl acid on old grout, concrete, brick mortar or plaster, the gas produced is CO2, and it comes from the limestone on the surface of those materials.
AND YET...
It seems obvious that a strong alkali like hydrated lime Ca(OH)2 will definitely react with a strong acid like HCl, so...
I diluted some 23% HCl toilet bowl cleaner with water and sprinkled some hydrated lime Ca(OH)2 into that liquid, and it fizzed, indicating some gas was being produced. So, I inhaled deeply to see if it had any smell, and it had no smell that I could discern. Since there was no carbon atoms around at the time, I can only conclude that it must have been either oxygen gas, hydrogen gas or both that was produced, as I definitely would have smelled chlorine gas.
Sorry I couldn't provide a better answer. I'm not exactly comfortable with that answer either as it seems the hydrogen and oxygen would prolly react to form water. But, there was a definite fizzing which I simply can't ignore.
The reason why I think that is because lime (CaO) is produced by heating limestone CaCO3 until the CO2 is driven off:
CaCO3 + heat = CaO + CO2
That lime can then be mixed with water in a highly exothermic reaction to form "hydrated lime", which is the lime we typically use for making brick mortar:
CaO + H2O = Ca(OH)2 = (a whole lotta heat)
And it's those two (OH) groups that make lime so highly caustic.
But, when lime is mixed with sand, portland cement and water to make the brick mortar, and the water wicks into the bricks or evaporates, a chemical reaction takes place...
The Ca(OH)2 in the brick mortar reacts with the CO2 in the air to form limestone again:
Ca(OH)2 + CO2 = CaCO3 + H2O
and the water molecule evaporates.
I know that much at least, because this is the process by which fresh concrete looses it's alkalinity during the first year or two after pouring. That is, when concrete is freshly poured, it'll be highly alkaline for a year or two before that alkalinity subsides, and it's the conversion of the hydrated lime Ca(OH)2 into limestone CaCO3 on the surface of the concrete that causes the alkalinity to subside by getting rid of those -OH groups that cause the alkalinity in the first place.
So, I think when you put HCl acid on old grout, concrete, brick mortar or plaster, the gas produced is CO2, and it comes from the limestone on the surface of those materials.
AND YET...
It seems obvious that a strong alkali like hydrated lime Ca(OH)2 will definitely react with a strong acid like HCl, so...
I diluted some 23% HCl toilet bowl cleaner with water and sprinkled some hydrated lime Ca(OH)2 into that liquid, and it fizzed, indicating some gas was being produced. So, I inhaled deeply to see if it had any smell, and it had no smell that I could discern. Since there was no carbon atoms around at the time, I can only conclude that it must have been either oxygen gas, hydrogen gas or both that was produced, as I definitely would have smelled chlorine gas.
Sorry I couldn't provide a better answer. I'm not exactly comfortable with that answer either as it seems the hydrogen and oxygen would prolly react to form water. But, there was a definite fizzing which I simply can't ignore.
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