Worried about my plumbers competence

[Dan Robinson]

Dan that install is nice But the grey waste is a poor colour choice. And do those lever valves including the all important gas one fall to the ON position?

Well spotted on the Gas cock - it was back when Atag had a spell of sending out the wrong size with the boiler - all I had were levers and the case wouldn't go on otherwise .

Waste pipe was a case of using what was in stock - and it is in a cupboard anyway

OP - the 4 pipes will be;

Cold main in
Cold supply to cylinder
Balanced cold to other services
Expansion relief pipe.

You must have at least three of them (the balanced supply is optional).


You valve is mounted with the expansion relief valve uppermost. There should be a 15mm pipe coming off the blue-topped valve heading away from your camera shot..

 

[oph]

Oh Dan a Magnaclean how could you.

Yea Dan

A minus from me too because of the Magnaleak

Otherwise that was pretty damn sexual that pipework

 

[achrn]

I have arranged with the builder to discuss matters with the plumber tomorrow. I have been down today and tried to untangle and draw the installation I have in the cupboard. I'd be very grateful if any of you helpful people can identify any further faults.

The trouble with this, is I don't know what I'm looking at half the time, and I don't know the symbols. Also, I don't know if corners / bends / orientation matter. However, I've drawn this, as much as possible with the same number of corners as the real pipework (though I've omitted several bends), and vertical pipes are shown vertical and horizontal shown horizontal. The main fault of the diagram is the heating circuits I show exiting upwards actually exit downwards.

Schematic:

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• achrn
• 17 Feb 2013
• 1

In that the thing I've called 'vent?' is this:

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• achrn
• 17 Feb 2013
• 1

The gauge I've shown just to the right of 'red cap' is this:

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• achrn
• 17 Feb 2013
• 1

'Red cap' is this:

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• achrn
• 17 Feb 2013
• 1

'Black cap' is this:

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• achrn
• 17 Feb 2013
• 1

The stopcock halfway down the left of the cylinder (cold feed) is this:

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• achrn
• 17 Feb 2013
• 1

The wiggly line in a 15mm run left-of-centre is a braided hose that has this at the top (and a similar-ish but smaller one at the bottom):

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• achrn
• 17 Feb 2013
• 1

'Blue bits' which from rummaging around in the piles of paper on site I now think I know is a 'Reliance Water Controls Multibloc' looks like this on the visible side and the back:

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• achrn
• 17 Feb 2013
• 1

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• achrn
• 17 Feb 2013
• 1

Things I think I have identified as being wrong with this install are:

1: TF1 is on the flow from boiler
2: TF1 has flow arrow pointing against actual water flow
3: The pressure vessel (is that also called expansion vessel?) is on the hot outlet and should be on the cold inlet
4: The 'multibloc' has nothing connected to the expansion relief valve outlet, so if it blows it's going to blow over the inside of my cupboard
5:There's a stopcock between the expansion relief valve and the cylinder
6: There's no balanced cold going downstairs (I have mixer taps on a hand-basin down there, and a thermostatic shower valve)
7: The bypass is just a fixed wheel valve, not an automatic bypass

I'm thinking this is enough that I ought to be instructing that the plumber is not to touch any more heating stuff, with immediate effect, and I need to get someone in to cut everything off just above the floor and start again.

Is that a fair assessment?

Should I also ask to see his gas-safe ticket / certificate / whatever? Is that confrontational and escalatory? I assumed the builder would appoint someone competent, but...? What should a gas-safe person have to show me?

Is there an equivalent certificate to install pressurised cylinders? The sticker on it refers to "... must only be fitted by a competent installer ..." but doesn't identify a specific qualification or definition of competent.

 

[CBF]

he must have the G3 cert to fit unvented it's illegal if he doesn't.

pressure vessel should be on the cold not the hot.
there should be no stop tap on the cold supply to the cylinder after the pressure reducing valve.
there should be a pipe from the top blue cap fitting (last pic) going into the pipe that goes outside above the tundish.
filter should be on the return (& as you don't have any choice now i would move it to the boiler postion) & the arrow needs to face the right way.
should be a auto bypass not a manual one.
ask to see his gas safe card & he should have unvented listed on the back or get his gs number & check on the web site

 

[Dan Robinson]

If you are working on gas or unvented cylinders you must have passed a course.. some times though the unvented qualification isn't listed on the back of the gas safe card... but he will have another card/certificate with it on if not.

Can't believe the expansion relief valve isn't connected (are you sure he wasn't planning on doing that anyway? Might be worth asking if the cylinder cupboard is complete? A loaded question .

The stop cock after the multibloc is very stoooopid. Especially as it has a jumper inside and could very easily isolate the cylinder from the bloc.

As for cutting it all out and starting again? That might be a little excessive.

Asking to see his qualifications is not aggressive at all. Wish more people would ask - I haven't produced my Gas Safe card in years.

 

[achrn]

Can't believe the expansion relief valve isn't connected (are you sure he wasn't planning on doing that anyway? Might be worth asking if the cylinder cupboard is complete? A loaded question .

I've been told it's complete. The heating had been running (at a low level) for a week or two until I queried why the pump never stops and then it was shut down. I'm not sure if the cylinder has been heated up, though.

I've just got the bill for extras. I was charged about £100 for the cocked up Fernox fitting (£174 + VAT to supply and fit) which seems quite expensive to me - I reckon I could have done it right in under an hour. I've also been charged £480 + VAT because he initially priced a single zone and I asked for two zones. Is that a fair increment for two heating zones compared to one? Or are these cheap prices (and the aggro I've got is the price I pay for that)?

I think there'll be a fair amount of cutting out because of things like the connection point for the expansion vessel on the multibloc faces straight at a wall 10mm away, but you can't rotate the valve because there's another pipe in the way. So that whole component needs to go elsewhere, and I'm not sure where it would fit with current layout. So I think the other pipe needs moving entirely instead, but it's quite tangled too. And so on.

Does it matter that the downstairs shower mixer valve is apparently fed direct from the mains, ie not on the balanced pressure cold? Likewise handwash basin mixer tap downstairs?

 

[freeflow]

Apart from the obvious faults already mentioned that boiler does not need an external bypass.

As for the pump running all the time, my guess is that there is a wiring fault and the LR terminal on the boiler is getting a constant power feed and it will not re-fire until its shed its heat hence pump is running all the time.

Is the external bypass valve open or closed at the moment?

 

[Dan Robinson]

Freeflow. The by-pass in the boiler is not compliant with Part L.

The expansion vessel can be connected on the cold feed to the cylinder

The showers not being balanced isn't the end of the world unless you have huge mains pressure.

If your incoming supply is less than 3 bar then it isn't worth the hassle - probably.

 

[CBF]

Freeflow, how do you know the OP's boiler doesn't req a bypass ? because apart from knowing it's a WB we don't have anymore info on that, plus as Dan said a man bypass doesn't comply with regs

 

[freeflow]

Dan,

So what we have been told about following MI's to the letter through ACS training is bollix then?

I did my part L about 6 years ago and cant remember anything mentioned about bypasses?

 

[freeflow]

CBF,

Its clearly a Worcester system boiler.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Dan,

So what we have been told about following MI's to the letter through ACS training is bollix then?

I did my part L about 6 years ago and cant remember anything mentioned about bypasses?

Have you read the CDi system boiler manual? .

Part L approved document might prove an interesting read as well .

 

[freeflow]

Dan,

Its not a CDI it is one of there lower priced I models, ie a WB junior.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Yes, they have their own by-pass - not a system bypass.

 

[freeflow]

Just re looked at the pic, it is a cdi