Wylex Consumer Unit replacement help.

[ericmark]

The SPD came with the box, which was not populated I selected 14 RCBO's to be fitted, but after fitting realised all type AC. I will take a chance with type AC for house as before there was no RCD protecting the main house, but for an electric car that is some thing very different. So looking at Type F,

so when I found mine were not type A but type AC I went onto Screwfix website to see what type were on offer, all it says is type B or C which refers to the MCB bit, tried TLC website they linked to Data Sheet and still no reference to what type the RCD is, if you look at the picture

after 250V 50Hz you can see the

sign showing type AC, but there is nothing in the advert which actually says which type it is, I looked at the boxes mine came in, nothing on the box, nothing on the paperwork inside the box, again only way to know type was the little AC sign.

I can find Schneider type F RCD's and RCBO's but not one is single width, this advert says it is type AC but the picture seems to show type A, so really can't go by picture.

This advert does show B curve type A RCBO at £28.56 each, that is a huge hike from the £16.32 for B curve type AC and as yet not found a type F single slot width RCBO that could be used in a consumer unit to supply an electric car.

Some RCBO's can cost £70 each, so it would seem type F at this time is a pipe dream, I am sure they will arrive as we get more electric cars, but it means in real terms you can't install a CU ready for when you get an electric car, I will not say electric vehicle, my wife has an electric bike, and with the charger supplied with that I would not worry that the RCBO is only type AC, same with our mobility scooter, may be technically electric vehicles but the chargers are small.

But in real terms the RCD for an electric car is inside the charging outlet, and likely supplied with SWA cable so no need for any RCD in the consumer unit, and with the supply required likely would be from a Henley block so it has full 100 amp supply if required. But one does question what was fitted with early charge points?

 

[Benny5]

While my original question generated a great deal of informed debate and as I still have the attention of the same experts could I ask a further question.

With my current energy contract ending next month and most of the reliable providers insisting on fitting a Smart Meter (for the best deals) does any know to what extent these fitters examine an installation prior to commencing work?

I don’t know how my installation would stand up to their scrutiny. Apart from the CU issues aleady raised, when my house was built the supply to the garage (Lights and Sockets) was independent with its own CU. Therefore the tails from both installations are terminated at the meter. Would all of this be accepted by these installers?

 

[JohnW2]

With my current energy contract ending next month and most of the reliable providers insisting on fitting a Smart Meter (for the best deals) does any know to what extent these fitters examine an installation prior to commencing work?

I may be wrong, but I would image no extent, at all - other than anything happening in the vicinity of the meter which they thought represented an immediate danger.

Indeed, I don't think that many of those employed as 'meter fitters' would have the training, knowledge or qualifications to enable them to meaningfully 'examine the installation' other than that in the immediate vicinity of the meter.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Benny5]

I may be wrong, but I would image no extent, at all - other than anything happening in the vicinity of the meter which they thought represented an immediate danger.

Indeed, I don't think that many of those employed as 'meter fitters' would have the training, knowledge or qualifications to enable them to meaningfully 'examine the installation' other than that in the immediate vicinity of the meter.

Kind Regards, John

That’s a relief. It’s just I’ve seen some Energy Supplier’s promotional videos showing an installer brandishing a meter and carrying out some form of testing.

Will the two ‘tails’ terminating at the meter present any issues?

Regards, Benny.

 

[ajohn]

Need more info about what you mean by 2 tails. Photo's sometimes help and may be needed in this case.

We still have a wylex cu in fact 2 of them each on a separate meter. Both on one now.

When they fitted the smart meter they just fitted it to the wylex and also added a separate isolator switch after the meter. They do this so that electricians can legally work on the CU without calling them out to remove and later replace the house fuse. The guy that fitted it wanted to loop the 2 wylex cu's together and run them off one meter but phoned and asked and told no. He wasn't happy about that as they have the stuff in the vans to do it so I found an ordinary electrician who would do it providing I forgot who he was.

There may be a catch in terms of checks. I was told that they had to watch me turn the central heating off otherwise they couldn't fit it. Also asked if he could look in the kitchen. The gas stove has a fold down lid and he checked that closing shut the gas off. My impression was that this is really an excuse to nose around. He did for instance say that they were told to disconnect it if our gas stove didn't do what it should but said they don't but no doubt some might. Turning the heating off meant he passed through a bedroom. Also wanted to see me turn it back on. The bedroom has been used as a lounge and has a gas fire in it. It has an oxygen sensor and draws anyway but was told not to use it.

 

[Benny5]

Need more info about what you mean by 2 tails. Photo's sometimes help and may be needed in this case.

We still have a wylex cu in fact 2 of them each on a separate meter. Both on one now.

When they fitted the smart meter they just fitted it to the wylex and also added a separate isolator switch after the meter. They do this so that electricians can legally work on the CU without calling them out to remove and later replace the house fuse. The guy that fitted it wanted to loop the 2 wylex cu's together and run them off one meter but phoned and asked and told no. He wasn't happy about that as they have the stuff in the vans to do it so I found an ordinary electrician who would do it providing I forgot who he was.

There may be a catch in terms of checks. I was told that they had to watch me turn the central heating off otherwise they couldn't fit it. Also asked if he could look in the kitchen. The gas stove has a fold down lid and he checked that closing shut the gas off. My impression was that this is really an excuse to nose around. He did for instance say that they were told to disconnect it if our gas stove didn't do what it should but said they don't but no doubt some might. Turning the heating off meant he passed through a bedroom. Also wanted to see me turn it back on. The bedroom has been used as a lounge and has a gas fire in it. It has an oxygen sensor and draws anyway but was told not to use it.

That’s very helpful.

This ia an image of my meter wiring arrangement.

This is the image of my current wiring arrangemet.

 

[scousespark]

Thanks for that.

I’m just debating whether to leave things as they are as any re-work/re-wire would disturb a lot of decorating.

Before going any further do you have any idea of the cost of the work you describe above, it’s a three bedroom Simi?

The advice above is all good. I walk away from cu changes if the customer refuses an EICR as the first step. It is more convenient to get any faults fixed between an inspection and a CU change than it is to get them fixed while you have now working CU.

 

[ajohn]

That's the meter ? A more usual arrangement is the feed from the meter being split into 2 pairs one to the house cu and the other to a switched fuse unit for the garage cu. They tend to use rather large bolt/screw connection units to split the feed from the meter 2 ways. Their name escapes me at the moment.

Unless there is some sort of replaceable fuse for the garage feed this looks to be rather odd as only the main fuse is protecting it. I don't think it's ever been done without separate protection but may be incorrect. Also usually having separate isolation as well.

I've seen meters of various ages and never one like that. A photo of the entire set up might clear things up

 

[Benny5]

That's the meter ? A more usual arrangement is the feed from the meter being split into 2 pairs one to the house cu and the other to a switched fuse unit for the garage cu. They tend to use rather large bolt/screw connection units to split the feed from the meter 2 ways. Their name escapes me at the moment.

Unless there is some sort of replaceable fuse for the garage feed this looks to be rather odd as only the main fuse is protecting it. I don't think it's ever been done without separate protection but may be incorrect. Also usually having separate isolation as well.

I've seen meters of various ages and never one like that. A photo of the entire set up might clear things up

I'll pick up on this on Monday, giving it a rest for the weekend.

Thanks to all. Benny.

 

[ajohn]

Warn you as a problem for me as well. My garage feed is fine as is but fitting a new cu changes things. I want rcd action in the garage to be completely independent of the house CU. If a new feed is fitted then a lot of swa has to be run through the house. This looks to be an area where the feed may have to be upgraded - not just a case of the wiring being ok and meeting previous regs. A delayed rcd seems to be the only way of doing it and an mcb as well. That should allow the existing wiring to be used.

 

[scousespark]

I wouldn't have an eicr done and I also want a wylex unit replacing, we have 2. I order to quote an electrician must know what work does need doing so they need to take a look and do some testing. Use this aspect as one of your electrician selection criteria or at least ask about this aspect. Some electricians will take a look around before quoting. If they didn't a couple of hundred quid on labour could easily turn into several times that and lots of house disruption.

EICR's are a mixed bag. Looking at ever aspect of wiring often isn't possible and things found that depart from current standards are noted and graded - that doesn't mean that they must be changed and this can get confusing and one electrician might even grade differently to another.

You know you have one problem and some one mentioned a fix. The question does remain that would all electricians view it the same way. You may have others. For instance I know I have a lot of unsleeved earth leads behind switches and sockets. Something I will very probably fix myself. I've no idea how an electrician would grade that. Lack of it has never ever caused any problems. I also know that the electrics are all functional. Having seen a lot of the wiring I know I have no overloaded cables that have leached plasticiser - that happening may also be down to previous use of crap cable.

The other aspect is making sure that the electrician is on the competent person register - the one that covers all of them and also make sure they leave the correct paperwork behind. The paperwork does extend the time on the job and some might not like doing it even if they do test correctly.

I have a number of points to make here.

1 - If a customer is having a CU change, the installation must be tested and any serious faults rectified before the CU can be handed over to be used by the customer. An upfront inspection gives time to address faults in a planned manner.
2 - A piece of equipment working does not mean the circuit is fault-free, or the circuit is not overloaded.
3 - issuing the certificate is not an optional task, so the people not doing so are not electricians (they are cowboys).

 

[scousespark]

I have always had trouble with this idea that an EICR should/must be carried out before a CU is changed.

Obviously it depends what you mean by 'before' - you would hardly do it afterwards.

The tails can be clamped to determine the overall situation and if an RCD is likely to trip.

So, is it meant that the circuits are tested - one at a time - when they are disconnected from the old CU? If so, then I would ask "How else could it be done"?

I do not consider that 'before' but 'during'.

Then if one circuit, for some reason, would not work with the new CU, do you refuse to fit it or somehow compensate for the incompatibility on a single circuit?

If an EICR finds a fault, the option is to fix the fault or advise that the CU can't be changed.

 

[ajohn]

I don't see a quote for a new cu that doesn't include a pre test as a viable option. Some electricians do look at a couple of things at least before quoting. True an electrician may suddenly find they can't fit a new cu.

Another aspect I've always wondered about is sleeving cpc's in back boxes. Does it have to be done as a for instance. The back box will be earthed in some and not on others. Depends when it was done. Modern things that get fitted into metal back boxes don't need them separately grounded

 

[EFLImpudence]

If an EICR finds a fault, the option is to fix the fault or advise that the CU can't be changed.

Well, sort of.

My query of the method is one of timing and cost to the customer.

Do you carry out this EICR and then put everything back together leaving the customer with a list of recommendations before you will deign to change the CU?
If so, is that, what £200?, to be paid even if you will not change the CU.
Then, if agreed, return another day to rectify the fault and fit the CU?

Or, if no faults found, then unnecessary reconnection of all the circuits (do you do any tests to make sure the reconnecting was satisfactory?) until you return another day, thus meaning two days work instead of one.

What faults would mean that you would not fit the new CU and what faults would mean that you could not fit the new CU?

Would not fitting the new CU - and compensating for this presumably not dangerous fault; say borrowed neutral - thus having RCDs on all the circuits be better than not fitting it?

 

[EFLImpudence]

True an electrician may suddenly find they can't fit a new cu.

Examples?

Another aspect I've always wondered about is sleeving cpc's in back boxes. Does it have to be done as a for instance.

Yes, but no one knows why exactly.

The back box will be earthed in some and not on others. Depends when it was done.

It's not a requirement for sunken boxes which are not exposed-conductive-parts.

Modern things that get fitted into metal back boxes don't need them separately grounded

I don't know what that means.