x10 automation dirty mains

[consciouspnm]

I've got a few X10 home automation devices that control various things like table lights. I changed the lamps in one of the lights for energy saving versions and now both that light and surrounding ones on the same circuit don't respond to the commands. If I move the offending light to another circuit both it and the rest of them start working again.

Would a 'normal' electrician have any kit to diagnose this problem as it only seems to occur on one particular circuit?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X10_(industry_standard)

 

[plugwash]

Would a 'normal' electrician have any kit to diagnose this problem as it only seems to occur on one particular circuit?

They could do the usual tests to check the installation is a sound mains installation but I doubt they could go much beyond that.

It sounds to me like something else is causing the X10 signal on that circuit to be particularlly weak/noisy and the energy saving bulbs are just pushing it over the edge.

Have you tried unplugging everything else on the circuit where you have problems?
Have you tried tightning all the connections on the cirucit where you have problems?
Is this circuit on any kind of RCD, RCBO, noise filter (especially noise filter) or any other device other than a normal overcurrent breaker?
If you have a split load consumer unit is this circuit on the same side or the opposite side from the rest of the X10 stuff?

 

[aptsys]

Are energy saving lamps suitable for use with your X10 devices or must they only be used with resistive loads?

 

[consciouspnm]

I'm using an appliance module to do the switching, so yes, energy saving lamps are ok.

The dodgy circuit is protected by a 20A MCB as it's a radial, the signal is coming through a 32A MCB off a ring main and quite happily passes through the RCD to get to the lighting circuits where there are more devices.

I've got plug in filters on the PC and printer as in the past they have caused problems but there is obviously something else as well.

 

[tim west]

x10 appliance modules have to see a load and the energy saver on its own will probably not be enough, try plugging another load in with it to try

 

[consciouspnm]

Isn't that the point of appliance modules, they contain relays so don't require any loads? I accept lamp modules do as they contain triacs. There are actually 6 bulbs in the fitting and plugging it into another ring main brings everthing back to life so it's not the appliance module that's at fault, it's the X10 comms to that circuit.

 

[consciouspnm]

I've now got some diagnostic equipment that basicly transmits an x10 signal at a set voltage (2v) and another box that isplays the strength of the received signal. If I plug the TX into the radial I'm having problems with, every socket I've tested on that radial either gives an RX reading of 2v or 1.5v. If I read from another ring at the closest point to the consumer unit, the voltage drops off to 25mv.

If I go from the downstairs ring to the upstairs ring it drops to 500mv. I need 100mv to get the command through. The MCBs are all MK ones but one in particular seems to be filtering the signal. I've had the power off and tightened all the screws so will putting another brand of MCB in help or are they all built the same?

 

[davelx]

Isn't that the point of appliance modules, they contain relays so don't require any loads? I accept lamp modules do as they contain triacs. There are actually 6 bulbs in the fitting and plugging it into another ring main brings everthing back to life so it's not the appliance module that's at fault, it's the X10 comms to that circuit.

Yep, I use in wall and plug in appliance modules with CFLs with no problems at all (apart from the TM13 RF appliance module/receiver which passes enough current to make the CFL flash when off - but that's to be expected as it has to drawer power for the RF section all the time).

 

[Turps]

X10 is a US import and works by transmitting high frequency signals down your mains wire superimposed on the AC sine wave when it crosses zero volts.

CF bulbs present two problems

1) They create a lot of mains noise and the cheaper bulbs are much worse than the more expensive ones - this noise effectively overwrites the X10 signal. So you might fix the problem with a good quality Phillips bulb.

2) The electronic ballast uses a capacitor across the mains and this can absorb the X10 signal - the impedance (or effective resistance) of the capacitor is proportional to 1/frequency so the high frequency X10 comms (120kHz) are particularly badly affected.


Your MCBs have a hold solenoid which also attenuates the X10 signal. This is actually good as it stops your X10 signal from interfering with next door and more importantly stops next doors cheap CF bulbs from interfering with your X10.

 

[consciouspnm]

So the question is then, how do I get the X10 signal across MCBs? The light fitting I have required 6 bulbs, and the smallest E14 energy saver I could find is 3w. I can put a filter in the fitting itself which will cure it in the short term, but what is the 'proper' solution to bridge circuits?

 

[plugwash]

I don't think you really can bridge the circuits better without either spending a lot of money or risking compromising the effecitveness of the breakers.

Putting a filter on the fitting itself is probbablly your best bet.

 

[davelx]

So the question is then, how do I get the X10 signal across MCBs? The light fitting I have required 6 bulbs, and the smallest E14 energy saver I could find is 3w. I can put a filter in the fitting itself which will cure it in the short term, but what is the 'proper' solution to bridge circuits?

http://www.letsautomate.com/10218.c...N=d73400-e5f1cc35-3cb6-4054-b8b1-0eaf59727966

 

[consciouspnm]

I've been doing some more testing with the diagnostic equipment so I thought I'd share the conclusions:

1. Filter everthing electronic if you can.
2. X10 modules absorb the signal, so the more you have, the worse it gets.
3. Radial circuits are a no-no, because there is only one way round, x10 absorbtion is really high.
4. Spurs have the same issue, so limit it to one plug in module per spur.
5. Get an amplifier/repeater.