Electrics in General - Stupid Question

[ban-all-sheds]

I am way too scared to download that file xmas_girl.exe.

It's a bit NSFW, but not ever so, and passed a virus check before I uploaded it. And I've had it for years - never seemed to do anything bad.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If you base your radial designs on the BS 1363 standard socket outlet you will soon have to change them. These will follow ring mains out the door at break neck speed. You will be left with an unfused outlet and similar restrictions to those used in other EU states.

I really don't think that will be the case. There has never been a tradition of forcing all existing installations to be updated to compliance with a new edition of the wiring regs, and they aren't going to start now.

For a long time there will be an enormous installed base of installations requiring maintenance and modifications. Even if the creation of new ring finals were banned, they are not going to force the use of a different type of outlet. It's probably worth noting that you can still install BS 546 outlets if you want, and new BS 3036 protected circuits.

No doubt Groupe Schneider and others have a commercial interest in a fundamentally different type of final circuit, but all they need is for it to be allowed as well.

If their systems make commercial sense for builders they will use them, if they do not then the products will fail.

 

[NotHimAgain]

We spent 25 years trying to develop an EU Plug and socket. MK even made a mock up of one of the 'final ' candidates - but all to no avail.

This was an EU project but there is a parallel IEC effort based around the commonly used EU plug. The UK always held out for a fused version but we would have little justification without the ring main. We are much weaker now on the international committees and so I fear we would lose in the long run

 

[NotHimAgain]

As an add on to the above -

Manufacturers tend to view harmonization as a means of rationalising production, and this generally means reducing the range of products. The fact that the original idea was to provide greater consumer choice seems to be irrelevant to them. Look at any standards committee and you will find that it is generally dominated by manufacturers.

If you need an example look at cable colour coding - what purpose does it serve? It appears to have managed to upset electricians throughout the EU, as all of them believed their system was best.

Cable colour coding also gives us an indication of how a change might be implemented. In an effort to prevent the continued use of the 'old way' they may just say that all new works, alterations and additions, will comply with the new standard. There may be some token effort to maintain existing installations but I would bet that all new products would have an 'EU plug' fitted.

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[plugwash]

If you need an example look at cable colour coding - what purpose does it serve?

consistant rules for color coding on portable appliances allow the same appliances to be sold throughout the EU and reduce the risk of people getting shocks when they change the plugs on appliances they grey import themselves (I've heard old stories of people importing equipment where red was earth from germany to the UK and getting shocks)

Having colors for fixed installations the same as portable appliances makes sense because cable types primerally designed for portable appliances (flex) often have uses within fixed installations.

 

[plugwash]

if they do change, it will be to a new design that does not benefit any country

It seems europe in general is trending towards using the german and french systems along with a hybrid plug that fits both (and for small appliances the europlug).

 

[NotHimAgain]

consistant rules for color coding on portable appliances allow the same appliances to be sold throughout the EU and reduce the risk of people getting shocks when they change the plugs on appliances they grey import themselves (I've heard old stories of people importing equipment where red was earth from germany to the UK and getting shocks)

Having colors for fixed installations the same as portable appliances makes sense because cable types primerally designed for portable appliances (flex) often have uses within fixed installations.

We managed without any consistency for years. The colour coding of flexes had to be changed again in 2004 to bring them into line with the new cable colours.

From BS 6500

Amendment No. 2:2004 implements the changes to the identification of cores by colours, in accordance with HD 308 S2. The principal identification colours are now:
Single phase — Green-and-yellow (Earth); blue (Neutral); brown (Live).
Three phase — Green-and-yellow (Earth); blue (Neutral); brown, black, grey (Live).

I only used the example of cable colours to illustrate that IMO harmonization is not always a great benefit. However, that is just my opinion.

holmslaw
Happy New Year.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

We spent 25 years trying to develop an EU Plug and socket. MK even made a mock up of one of the 'final ' candidates - but all to no avail.

This was an EU project but there is a parallel IEC effort based around the commonly used EU plug. The UK always held out for a fused version but we would have little justification without the ring main. We are much weaker now on the international committees and so I fear we would lose in the long run

Lose what?

The ability to prevent the gradual introduction of a "europlug"?

Or the ability to carry on using BS 1363s alongside it if we wanted to?

 

[NotHimAgain]

You would still be able to use other systems, as you can now, but I would expect that The Plugs and Sockets etc. (Safety) Regulations 1994 would be changed, and the norm would be the new arrangement.

The EU plug and socket project did not produce a fused plug. Provision was to be made in the sockets to accommodate our system until it could be phased out. Fused sockets do not provide the same degree of flexibility in use as fused plugs.

I am sure that changes to our system will come about in the not too distant future. I am not too concerned - changes happen.

 

[RF Lighting]

Are BS EN 60309-2 plugs / sockets not already a Europe wide standard connector?

 

[NotHimAgain]

Are BS EN 60309-2 plugs / sockets not already a Europe wide standard connector?

I think they are - how many have you got in your lounge .

 

[ColJack]

we will never allow fused plugs to be phased out..

the problem with the european way of radials everywhere is that yes, a 16A radial will protect the house wiring, but that alarm clock radio that takes only 1A, and with it's flex wired in 0.5mm cable would then need an internal fuse to protect the flex..

 

[ban-all-sheds]

We managed without any consistency for years.

We managed without a great many things, in all sorts of areas, for many years.

Are you against any change per se?

"We managed without <xxxx> for years" can be said about any innovation - it's a fatuous argument.

The colour coding of flexes had to be changed again in 2004 to bring them into line with the new cable colours.

Was that, perhaps, because they were inconsistent?

Is consistency a bad thing?

I only used the example of cable colours to illustrate that IMO harmonization is not always a great benefit. However, that is just my opinion.

Anything can be, and often is, cocked-up, but that doesn't necessarily mean the idea was bad - it usually means it was put into practice by tw@s.

 

[securespark]

it is also becoming harder to install ring mains

Is it?

Yes, because the increasing amount of thermal insulation in houses is making it harder to achieve an Iz of 20A with 2.5mm².

That doesn't make it harder to install ring mains[sic] at all, just a little more expensive.