SWA, sockets, and freedom from RCDs

[BS3036]

Judging by the somewhat heated responses to my post, it seems that it is assumed that I was defending some website or other, which in fact I haven't even seen. My post was in response to an apparent statement on *this* forum that there was only one set of language in use when describing electrical installations.

My point still is that, while manufacturers continue to have their own words to describe certain electrical products which differ from the current set of words chosen by the IET and other committees, that it is a good idea for the public to be made aware of the possible confusions.

[Edit for spelling]

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Are you sure its the manufacturer's who are getting the electrical terminology wrong?

im not certain, but i think its more likely that its the DIY stores who do not have good grasp on the situation as a whole.

Its not really their interest to correctly inform you as to what you are doing, they are just selling 'stuff' for a profit, what you do with it is your problem and liability should it end in flames.

Over the past few weeks i have had cause to go into the big Orange warehouse of tat as well as wickes. It is interesting to note that they do not have any notices in the shop advising consumers of their legal requirements WRT Part P or BR. You only get that in the poxy instruction leaflet contained within the box. By the time you read that, the shed has already taken your money and the monkey is off their back.

The language Electricians use is not secret, it is there for all to see in BS7671. If you cannot even refer to the parts correctly, whos to say you can carry out any work safely?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It is interesting to note that they do not have any notices in the shop advising consumers of their legal requirements WRT Part P or BR.

If you buy bricks and cement do they advise you of your legal requirements WRT Part A, Part B, Part C etc, the Planning Act, the Party Wall etc Act....?

 

[mfarrow]

If you buy bricks and cement ....?

Bricks and cement can be used to build/block/extend just about anything, a lot of it not covered by building regulations.

If you buy a consumer unit, there's not many uses you can reasonably expect Joe Bloggs to use it for, especially when bought from a DIY, home improvement store (trade counters are different of course).

I agree that anything else you can get away without any warning (sockets, cables etc.) as you could use them in a situation that didn't require contravening the regulations, but consumer units is just taking the Part P.

 

[Paul_C]

If you buy a consumer unit, there's not many uses you can reasonably expect Joe Bloggs to use it for, especially when bought from a DIY, home improvement store (trade counters are different of course).

He could be using it in his own business premises, which aren't covered by Part P. But as it's perfectly legal to sell the item in question, I don't see it's any business of the store to point out all the legal ramifications of its use.

You can buy a rotating blue beacon and might have perfectly legitimate uses for it for film, theatre, or in your home. Is it up to the seller to tell you that fitting it to your private vehicle is an offense?

 

[mfarrow]

He could be using it in his own business premises, which aren't covered by Part P

He could, but not many people own their own business premises, and certainly not enough to warrant DIY stores (I was going to emphasise the home in home improvements before but didn't) stocking these items without the majority going to Joe.

A blue rotating strobe light has a number of uses outside the automotive industry, but if it was for sale in Halfords I wouldn't expect them to be on display without a warning notice attached (as the same stores do with 'super bright' 100W headlight bulbs). It's simple duty of care to their target consumer.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I agree that anything else you can get away without any warning (sockets, cables etc.) as you could use them in a situation that didn't require contravening the regulations, but consumer units is just taking the Part P.

OK - what about windows? Do they warn people about the notification requirements for those? WCs?

Recessed downlights - do they warn people about the Part C and L implications of those?

I know that captive ferrets love a maze of pipes to run around in, but not many people keep them, so when someone buys soil pipe do they get warned about the water regulations?

Do car dealers warn people of the need to insure and tax the vehicle? Or to obey the various road traffic acts?

If someone stops you and asks for directions, and your answer has them crossing a road, do you tell them to stop at the kerb, look right, left, right again etc?

How far do you think that individuals and organisations have to go in telling their customers about all of the laws, rules & regulations which apply to what they do with their purchases?

 

[Paul_C]

Indeed. Just about any object on sale could be used illegally.

"Warning: Use of this kitchen knife as a weapon for armed robbery is a criminal offense."

"Warning: It may be against the law to use this printer to produce threatening or intimidating letters."

O.K., they're extreme examples perhaps. So how about:

"Warning: Use of this coaxial cable to feed signals to equipment for the reception of broadcast television is illegal without an applicable license."

"Warning: Use of this telephone test set to intercept communications without authorization is an offense."

And a new van should come with a note in the manual:

"Warning: You may need to obtain a waste carrier's license to use this vehicle for transporting waste materials."

How far do you want to go?

 

[flameport]

How far do you want to go?

WARNING: This product warps space and time in its vicinity.

WARNING: This product attracts every other piece of matter in the universe, including the products of other manufacturers, with a force proportional to the product of the masses and inversely proportional to the distance between them.

CAUTION: The mass of this product contains the energy equivalent of 85 million tons of TNT per net ounce of weight.

HANDLE WITH EXTREME CARE: This product contains minute electrically charged particles moving at velocities in excess of five hundred million miles per hour.

CONSUMER NOTICE: Because of the "uncertainty principle," it is impossible for the consumer to find out at the same time both precisely where this product is and how fast it is moving.

ADVISORY: There is an extremely small but nonzero chance that, through a process known as "tunneling," this product may spontaneously disappear from its present location and reappear at any random place in the universe, including your neighbor's domicile. The manufacturer will not be responsible for any damages or inconveniences that may result.

READ THIS BEFORE OPENING PACKAGE: According to certain suggested versions of the Grand Unified Theory, the primary particles constituting this product may decay to nothingness within the next four hundred million years.

THIS IS A 100% MATTER PRODUCT: In the unlikely event that this merchandise should contact antimatter in any form, a catastrophic explosion will result.

PUBLIC NOTICE AS REQUIRED BY LAW: Any use of this product, in any manner whatsoever, will increase the amount of disorder in the universe. Although no liability is implied herein, the consumer is warned that this process will ultimately lead to the heat death of the universe.

NOTE: The most fundamental particles in this product are held together by a "gluing" force about which little is currently known and whose adhesive power can therefore not be permanently guaranteed.

ATTENTION: Despite any other listing of product contents found hereon, the consumer is advised that, in actuality, this product consists of 99.9999999999% empty space.

NEW GRAND UNIFIED THEORY DISCLAIMER: The manufacturer may technically be entitled to claim that this product is ten-dimensional. However, the consumer is reminded that this confers no legal rights above and beyond those applicable to three-dimensional objects, since the seven new dimensions are "rolled up" into such a small "area" that they cannot be detected.

PLEASE NOTE: Some quantum physics theories suggest that when the consumer is not directly observing this product, it may cease to exist or will exist only in a vague and undetermined state.

COMPONENT EQUIVALENCY NOTICE: The subatomic particles (electrons, protons, etc.) comprising this product are exactly the same in every measurable respect as those used in the products of other manufacturers, and no claim to the contrary may legitimately be expressed or implied.

HEALTH WARNING: Care should be taken when lifting this product, since its mass, and thus its weight, is dependent on its velocity relative to the user.

IMPORTANT NOTICE TO PURCHASERS: The entire physical universe, including this product, may one day collapse back into an infinitesimally small space. Should another universe subsequently re-emerge, the existence of this product in that universe cannot be guaranteed.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

It is interesting to note that they do not have any notices in the shop advising consumers of their legal requirements WRT Part P or BR.

If you buy bricks and cement do they advise you of your legal requirements WRT Part A, Part B, Part C etc, the Planning Act, the Party Wall etc Act....?

Ah, yet again, another example of selective quoting out of context. I think you're missing the point. If only you had quoted the sentence preceeding that -

"Its not really their interest to correctly inform you as to what you are doing, they are just selling 'stuff' for a profit, what you do with it is your problem and liability should it end in flames."

What have bricks got to do with anything? We've been down this road before, can't be bothered to go through it all again, why not have a little search through some old threads?

 

[mfarrow]

Read my post again!

All the examples given have many varied uses, but a consumer unit does not.

I specifically used the example of a consumer unit as they're not much likely to be used for anything else especially when bought from a DIY store selling the item for home improvements.

If shops like that are going to sell something which the general public cannot install by law without spending a ridiculous amount of money on LABC fees then the purchaser should be warned.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Indeed. Just about any object on sale could be used illegally.

"Warning: Use of this kitchen knife as a weapon for armed robbery is a criminal offense."

"Warning: It may be against the law to use this printer to produce threatening or intimidating letters."

O.K., they're extreme examples perhaps. So how about:

"Warning: Use of this coaxial cable to feed signals to equipment for the reception of broadcast television is illegal without an applicable license."

"Warning: Use of this telephone test set to intercept communications without authorization is an offense."

And a new van should come with a note in the manual:

"Warning: You may need to obtain a waste carrier's license to use this vehicle for transporting waste materials."

How far do you want to go?

As far as is reasonably practicable. The above examples are just silly, get a grip

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

How far do you want to go?

WARNING: This product warps space and time in its vicinity.

WARNING: This product attracts every other piece of matter in the universe, including the products of other manufacturers, with a force proportional to the product of the masses and inversely proportional to the distance between them.

CAUTION: The mass of this product contains the energy equivalent of 85 million tons of TNT per net ounce of weight.

HANDLE WITH EXTREME CARE: This product contains minute electrically charged particles moving at velocities in excess of five hundred million miles per hour.

CONSUMER NOTICE: Because of the "uncertainty principle," it is impossible for the consumer to find out at the same time both precisely where this product is and how fast it is moving.

ADVISORY: There is an extremely small but nonzero chance that, through a process known as "tunneling," this product may spontaneously disappear from its present location and reappear at any random place in the universe, including your neighbor's domicile. The manufacturer will not be responsible for any damages or inconveniences that may result.

READ THIS BEFORE OPENING PACKAGE: According to certain suggested versions of the Grand Unified Theory, the primary particles constituting this product may decay to nothingness within the next four hundred million years.

THIS IS A 100% MATTER PRODUCT: In the unlikely event that this merchandise should contact antimatter in any form, a catastrophic explosion will result.

PUBLIC NOTICE AS REQUIRED BY LAW: Any use of this product, in any manner whatsoever, will increase the amount of disorder in the universe. Although no liability is implied herein, the consumer is warned that this process will ultimately lead to the heat death of the universe.

NOTE: The most fundamental particles in this product are held together by a "gluing" force about which little is currently known and whose adhesive power can therefore not be permanently guaranteed.

ATTENTION: Despite any other listing of product contents found hereon, the consumer is advised that, in actuality, this product consists of 99.9999999999% empty space.

NEW GRAND UNIFIED THEORY DISCLAIMER: The manufacturer may technically be entitled to claim that this product is ten-dimensional. However, the consumer is reminded that this confers no legal rights above and beyond those applicable to three-dimensional objects, since the seven new dimensions are "rolled up" into such a small "area" that they cannot be detected.

PLEASE NOTE: Some quantum physics theories suggest that when the consumer is not directly observing this product, it may cease to exist or will exist only in a vague and undetermined state.

COMPONENT EQUIVALENCY NOTICE: The subatomic particles (electrons, protons, etc.) comprising this product are exactly the same in every measurable respect as those used in the products of other manufacturers, and no claim to the contrary may legitimately be expressed or implied.

HEALTH WARNING: Care should be taken when lifting this product, since its mass, and thus its weight, is dependent on its velocity relative to the user.

IMPORTANT NOTICE TO PURCHASERS: The entire physical universe, including this product, may one day collapse back into an infinitesimally small space. Should another universe subsequently re-emerge, the existence of this product in that universe cannot be guaranteed.

Hmm, maybe you confused this 'DIY Electrical forum' for 'im a star trek fan and proud' forum. All the above may be of great interest to an A level physics student, but not many others.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It is interesting to note that they do not have any notices in the shop advising consumers of their legal requirements WRT Part P or BR.

If you buy bricks and cement do they advise you of your legal requirements WRT Part A, Part B, Part C etc, the Planning Act, the Party Wall etc Act....?

Ah, yet again, another example of selective quoting out of context. I think you're missing the point. If only you had quoted the sentence preceeding that -

"Its not really their interest to correctly inform you as to what you are doing, they are just selling 'stuff' for a profit, what you do with it is your problem and liability should it end in flames."

OK.

Its not really their interest to correctly inform you as to what you are doing, they are just selling 'stuff' for a profit, what you do with it is your problem and liability should it end in flames.

Over the past few weeks i have had cause to go into the big Orange warehouse of tat as well as wickes. It is interesting to note that they do not have any notices in the shop advising consumers of their legal requirements WRT Part P or BR.

If you buy bricks and cement do they advise you of your legal requirements WRT Part A, Part B, Part C etc, the Planning Act, the Party Wall etc Act....?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Read my post again!

All the examples given have many varied uses, but a consumer unit does not.

I specifically used the example of a consumer unit as they're not much likely to be used for anything else especially when bought from a DIY store selling the item for home improvements.

What about windows? Are they likely to be used for anything else when bought from a DIY store?

WCs?

Recessed downlighters?

Paving slabs?

If shops like that are going to sell something which the general public cannot install by law without spending a ridiculous amount of money on LABC fees then the purchaser should be warned.

Road tax and insurance aren't cheap either, and the general public cannot legally use private motor vehicles without them - do you expect car dealers to warn people of that?

If not, why not?