Ideal Logic

[PEDANTICVINDICTIVEMAN]

I have fitted 3 Logic plus's now, used the pre-piped back spacer kit and vertical flue this week, all been easy to fit commision and look perform good, only niggle is I would like the pressure guage on the front behind the cover.

I fitted and still have an Isar in my own house, apart from the PCB issue it has been fine all other ways, been in about 5 years.

Not keen on Homeserve being the warranty backup though.

No I dont work for or have any affiliation to Ideal either.

 

[Temprise]

Any one have experience of these, i would like to fit the + with 5 yrs guarantee, ive seen them in merchants they look ok nice & compact, i know a lot of people on here dont like ideal but this is a new product can it be that bad?

alan

I have fitted a few of these and are my number one choice that i push to customers.

Easy to fit etc, and i have had no problems at all.

People will install what they are used to and a brand that they can trust and i think that is why there seems to be some reluctance from some to try the Logic.

Other manufacters other than Ideal have had problems in the past but these other manufacters seem to get away with critisism.

It did take a lot for me to take the plunge into trying one and since i have i havent regretted it for a minute. My customers have been very happy and the 5 year warranty appeals to them.

I am lead to believe that the boiler must be serviced yearly for the warranty to be valid, which is no problem because i can service and charge for that.

You will only find out if you like something when you try it.

Regards

 

[vulcancontinental]

Ideal boilers.

I often see this brand dismissed by some posters to the site and they get a poor report in consumer surveys like Which magazine.

I didn’t fit many (over the past 30 years) they were often the heaviest with a very utilitarian appearance and the frame edges were poorly finished at the factory resulting in too many ripped overalls; gloves were essential. However I still see many up to 30 years old chundering on. They did the job.

Something to bear in mind when choosing from a consumer report in which Ideals come out badly: Which is a subscription magazine, it cost the reader money to buy it or time to go to a library to read it. This means the reader is thoughtful or a bit better off financially than somebody young starting out in a starter home. This also means that the reader will shop around when choosing an installation company and will be prepared to pay more for the product recommended (sometimes the brochure quality is more important than the product). This will result in a better installer (hopefully) and a powerflush if retrofitting plus the installer wants repeat business so the job goes in properly.

Ideal boilers were always contract boilers sold in large numbers to developers and councils (in my area at least) and to price sensitive purchasers. The fitters were house bashers on a tight price who didn’t have to go back if the job went wrong and there was never going to be repeat business. A boiler was the job for the next hour or two, another metal object to be taken from box to wall and filled up as quickly as possible. Therefore a lot of the boilers, especially the lightweight ones, went in with unflushed systems and pipework that had been installed hurriedly with a lot of flux left in soldered joints. Surprise, surprise, there are often problems with boilers fitted that way.

I find that a large estate with contract boilers, usually an Ideal or Thorn, have a shorter life simply because of the conditions they were installed under. In the late seventies when I was talking to the Baxi representative he told me all boilers are designed for a 15yr life, I don’t believe that’s changed.

To the present day: Nowadays I rarely fit and just survey heating systems (over 4000 in the past 3½ years) and believe me that has given me a whole different perspective on boilers and longevity.

I work for a scheme that puts in up to 1500 boilers a week, mostly Ideal’s. They give trouble sometimes but audit the installation trail and it can often be traced back to an area with less than perfect supervision or sub-contractors that have quality issues. The boilers are OK and the fitters I speak to think the Icos and Logic are top rate. The Isar was too heavy with associated Health and Safety issues for one man install.

The most important thing about a boiler is the man who puts it in.

 

[nickso]

Ideal boilers.

I often see this brand dismissed by some posters to the site and they get a poor report in consumer surveys like Which magazine.

I didn’t fit many (over the past 30 years) they were often the heaviest with a very utilitarian appearance and the frame edges were poorly finished at the factory resulting in too many ripped overalls; gloves were essential. However I still see many up to 30 years old chundering on. They did the job.

Something to bear in mind when choosing from a consumer report in which Ideals come out badly: Which is a subscription magazine, it cost the reader money to buy it or time to go to a library to read it. This means the reader is thoughtful or a bit better off financially than somebody young starting out in a starter home. This also means that the reader will shop around when choosing an installation company and will be prepared to pay more for the product recommended (sometimes the brochure quality is more important than the product). This will result in a better installer (hopefully) and a powerflush if retrofitting plus the installer wants repeat business so the job goes in properly.

Ideal boilers were always contract boilers sold in large numbers to developers and councils (in my area at least) and to price sensitive purchasers. The fitters were house bashers on a tight price who didn’t have to go back if the job went wrong and there was never going to be repeat business. A boiler was the job for the next hour or two, another metal object to be taken from box to wall and filled up as quickly as possible. Therefore a lot of the boilers, especially the lightweight ones, went in with unflushed systems and pipework that had been installed hurriedly with a lot of flux left in soldered joints. Surprise, surprise, there are often problems with boilers fitted that way.

I find that a large estate with contract boilers, usually an Ideal or Thorn, have a shorter life simply because of the conditions they were installed under. In the late seventies when I was talking to the Baxi representative he told me all boilers are designed for a 15yr life, I don’t believe that’s changed.

To the present day: Nowadays I rarely fit and just survey heating systems (over 4000 in the past 3½ years) and believe me that has given me a whole different perspective on boilers and longevity.

I work for a scheme that puts in up to 1500 boilers a week, mostly Ideal’s. They give trouble sometimes but audit the installation trail and it can often be traced back to an area with less than perfect supervision or sub-contractors that have quality issues. The boilers are OK and the fitters I speak to think the Icos and Logic are top rate. The Isar was too heavy with associated Health and Safety issues for one man install.

The most important thing about a boiler is the man who puts it in.

all that aside, the fact that the majority of ideal boilers are a ****ing pain in the arse to work on and have regular failures on components that are nothing to do with installer issues still shows them to be very poor overall. isars/icos's in particular have some extremely poor design features that ideal tried to engineer out but on the whole failed spectacularly to do so. yes the boilers are "OK" but very far from great. ideal probably only exist to this day because of the contract specifier getting good deals to fit them en masse to large estates. their market share of replacement boilers must be very poor, even more so if BG didn't insist on fitting them.

 

[Temprise]

even more so if BG didn't insist on fitting them.[/quote]


BG havent pushed Ideal for years. Thery have badged up Worcesters as you know as their main boiler for a few years now.

Regards

 

[vulcancontinental]

What I’m trying to say is that it’s not always clear-cut. I used to think the Thorn and Ideal’s were rubbish because I picked up repairs from estates in which they were fitted. The numbers of boilers fitted this way are very high. My main work was mostly individual installs in larger houses where I used boilers that were cast iron with a nicer casing to fit in a nicer house (it worked for me).

When I got 10 repairs on a big estate over three or four years I associated that make with poor reliability but proportionally, if either were fitted with the same care in each case the failure rates would probably not vary too much.

I guess you could argue that Vaillant and Worcester only exist today because of their share of the replacement market and Ravenheat, Biasi etc only because of second line merchants, bucket shops and the internet.

BG in my area has rarely fitted Ideal, they like Glow-Worm and Worcester. I believe the new install and replacement arm of Eon are exclusively Worcester.

Interesting how we all have odd reasons for liking and disliking a particular make of boiler, I went from Netaheats and Kingfishers to Solo's and FS Baxi's because there were less than half the number of nuts and screws to undo during a service and far less fiddly as well.

 

[kevindgas]

I see the IDEAL DEFENSE LEAGUE is in town ,well lets look at the merits of your new boiler ..................The ideal logic ,another untested untried piece of equipement unleashed on the great British public

What exactly do you have to back up this wonderful warranty or is it going to be more of the same when things go wrong,do the usaul and blame the poor installer


I will not stake my reputation on this piece of kit,when things go wrong and as they will with all boilers its how the manufacturer deals with the problem set apart a great company from medicore one and then of course there is IDEAL!

Any independent who fits ideal with what is available to them on the market needs his head examined and im sure they will learn their lesson when things go wrong as inevitably they will

Why would you want to fit a lemon from IDEAL

The most important people to me is my customers and the relationship i maintain with them, some customers i deal with i am now onto their second and third generations, this is purely due to the commitment and trust they have with our professionalism and workmanship.
A good reputation takes a long time time to attain,one which can be lost overnight when you dont think of the customer first

Ideal thanks but no thanks

exactly the reason i will tell EVERYONE how ****e Ideal are is their appaulling customer service or should it be lack of customer service.

they use every trick in the book to get out of warranty repairs from taking a week to get there, not having the parts on the van, blaming the installer etc.

i get next day service from Vokera and 2 day from Vaillant both of which fix first time on many occassions

Ideal warranties are not worth the paper they are written on!

 

[vulcancontinental]

I see the IDEAL DEFENSE LEAGUE is in town ,well lets look at the merits of your new boiler ..................The ideal logic ,another untested untried piece of equipement unleashed on the great British public

What exactly do you have to back up this wonderful warranty or is it going to be more of the same when things go wrong,do the usaul and blame the poor installer


I will not stake my reputation on this piece of kit,when things go wrong and as they will with all boilers its how the manufacturer deals with the problem set apart a great company from medicore one and then of course there is IDEAL!

Any independent who fits ideal with what is available to them on the market needs his head examined and im sure they will learn their lesson when things go wrong as inevitably they will

Why would you want to fit a lemon from IDEAL

The most important people to me is my customers and the relationship i maintain with them, some customers i deal with i am now onto their second and third generations, this is purely due to the commitment and trust they have with our professionalism and workmanship.
A good reputation takes a long time time to attain,one which can be lost overnight when you dont think of the customer first

Ideal thanks but no thanks

exactly the reason i will tell EVERYONE how s***te Ideal are is their appaulling customer service or should it be lack of customer service.

they use every trick in the book to get out of warranty repairs from taking a week to get there, not having the parts on the van, blaming the installer etc.

i get next day service from Vokera and 2 day from Vaillant both of which fix first time on many occassions

Ideal warranties are not worth the paper they are written on!

Like the signature says different eyes see things differently.

As for blaming the installer-
When Vaillants were introduced and started their training courses (around 1980) the trainer stated analysis found that 92% of all in-warranty callouts were installer created. In 2007 at a Baxi course they stated the figure of 91%. In 2008 at another training day at Vaillants the figure was still over 90%.

With regard to Ideal's service company (Warmsure and I think it is now owned by somebody else) I believe I heard over 80% of all their breakdowns over the past year were related to condensate pipework - that is not a manufacturer fault. Probably the same percentage of the other manufacturers too. Obviously the figures are distorted because of the weather

I don't fit or work for Ideal, I simply say what I've found when looking at thousands of jobs.

 

[roguetrader]

ideal are now a company run on mass sales with even bigger kickbacks to keep the wheel turning. their products are appaling, the aftersales tech and service are even worse.
how can a product with such a terrible reputation still be fitted in new homes? we all know why, cheap prices and payoffs.
in my mind the only thing worse than an ideal icos/isar is the knob head iguana/eaga installer that have served up some of the worst installations ive seen, and theyre supposed to be regulated.
so would i fit a logic or logic +??
id rather cut off my nuts with a rusty hacksaw.

 

[PEDANTICVINDICTIVEMAN]

ideal are now a company run on mass sales with even bigger kickbacks to keep the wheel turning. their products are appaling, the aftersales tech and service are even worse.
how can a product with such a terrible reputation still be fitted in new homes? we all know why, cheap prices and payoffs.
in my mind the only thing worse than an ideal icos/isar is the knob head iguana/eaga installer that have served up some of the worst installations ive seen, and theyre supposed to be regulated.
so would i fit a logic or logic +??
id rather cut off my nuts with a rusty hacksaw.

Most of what you say is probably true, but true for all manufacturers, Definately true for all the Warmfront installations "I" have been to, I dont agree with the comment that "all their products are appalling though.

 

[transam]

Must admit being a bit of a sceptic !! Ido not take to much notice of boiler manu's figures on reliability take it all with a pinch of salt is my advice ! there all to eager to blame the installer for any thing or every thing that go's wrong with there boiler's , you never hear about how much manufacturing faults cost the installation industry , time , money , damaged reputation's ect I doubt wether any one has ever compiled any figure's on this . I am also of the opinion that all of these 5 year + warranty's will come back to haunt some installer's ! As for Ideal never used them & never will from what I have seen on this site ! The most reliable boiler that we have put in on masse of the fanned flued modulating type is the Biasi SR system's boiler's combi's Biasi 24 &28 S's , & alot of them are & have been subjected to mis-use !

 

[kevindgas]

With regard to Ideal's service company (Warmsure and I think it is now owned by somebody else) I believe I heard over 80% of all their breakdowns over the past year were related to condensate pipework - that is not a manufacturer fault. Probably the same percentage of the other manufacturers too. Obviously the figures are distorted because of the weather

no they are distorted by lying cheating scum like ideal!!
95% of breakdowns have been PCB failure, most within warranty which they weasel out of honouring.
of the other 5%, 4% have been ignition generator/probe failure.
only been to 2 boilers where the installer was at fault (both EAGA numpty installs)

 

[vulcancontinental]

Wow!

Well, I’m no apologist for Ideal, I don’t fit them, but what you say doesn’t gel with what I find.

"id prefer to nail my **** to the worktop with a paslode gun rather than fit an ideal. take note of the way ideal have been rubbished, it wasnt just for fun."

"id rather cut off my nuts with a rusty hacksaw."

I’m sure things wont come to that for you rouge trader, just don’t fit them - easy. You must have had some poor experiences to make you ready to mistreat your own reproductive organs in this manner (or have an unusual private life).

Never used Ideal service myself so can’t comment; tech help has been fine for me.

As for selling Ideal boilers, yes I think they’re sold in large numbers because they’re cheap; payoffs, I wouldn’t know about, I don’t move in those circles.

Worcester (and I bet Vaillant, Baxi, Glow-Worm, etc, etc.) also reported over 90% of calls were condensate related over the past year. I know they’re not all lying cheating scum. Worcester even published a technical bulletin for installers on the matter.

The majority of faults in any make of boiler will be the PCB I guess, after that electrodes and fans – just my experience.

Doesn’t it strike you as strange that a TV manufacturer can make a product that operates in just as harsh a set of conditions as a PCB in a boiler and doesn’t go wrong every two-three years? When Potterton introduced the first Netaheat Electronic they dropped the price £40 from the MkII and the boards were ordered from the manufacturer to last so many million cycles (2,000,000 I think, and the boards did last). Now the boards have to operate for a couple of years to get out of guarantee and be a cut price item – and they generally do and they certainly are in many cases.

I have sub-contracted to the WarmFront scheme as a surveyor and I can tell you that the quality of the work depends on the area greatly.

In Suffolk, not my area, I don’t recall there being any direct labour so the installs were entrusted to individual sub-contractors like you or me. When these people are not doing poor work for the scheme they’re doing it for private clients. Not to excuse them, just a fact of life, they’d be crap if they were working for a charity, church or their own family.

One other thing, I’ve surveyed many thousands of existing systems for the scheme, none of which were installed by the WarmFront contractors i.e. they were already installed by ordinary heating installers in the past. Many of them are appalling, some so bad I’ve had to I.D. No group or organisation is without blame in rubbish work. Ever since I started it has been the same, B.G. had some terrible sub-contractors and a few bad direct installers and it is still the same; there are good installers and dreadful installers.

I do take notice of manufacturer’s figures, I do believe what Baxi, Vaillant, (plus Honeywell and Grunfos say incidentally) – over 90% of all in-warranty claims or returns are installer problems. I find manufacturers will bend over backwards not to blame the installer as they want repeat business; they hold their hands and talk them through the fault and often fix it for nothing to keep the installer on their side using their products.

I just started installing again and had to call a manufactures’ tech help line to get advice on why a boiler was tripping out. Tech help couldn’t figure it (I’d been on the course). The rep came round within two days and pointed out that I had not reset the boiler from test mode (the display isn’t clear). I’d forgotten that from the training day, the tech man didn’t ask me and the instruction leaflet was poor and didn’t mention it (I looked) but it was still my fault and I like to think of myself as diligent. The service engineer shrugged it off and said that bit didn’t bother him; it was the lack of or partial powerflushing, poor system layouts, condensate runs and no benchmarking that were his problem on new boilers and retrofits.

I like the Biasi story; I wouldn’t fit one but then I never have so why am I so prejudiced? Just human nature I guess. I look at the boilers, see which manufacturer has the things I think important in a good boiler then stick with them. Surveying so many has certainly changed my opinion.

 

[mickyg]

see this thread has seperated the installers from the repair engineers.
Those who choose to do nothing but throw boilers at walls don't see the hassle years down the line that the customer suffers.
As for Ideal engineers saying that we are losing out on their expertise in fixing these piles of junk, well I have to tell you, whilst a little insder information is sometimes helpful its not essential, we get so much bloody practice on these things we're getting pretty good on our own ta.
Anyone who decides to start fitting the new Logics now, all I can say is your very brave. Just remember one thing, if you quote for one and the customer does some internet research what do you think your chances of getting the job will be on a scale of 1-10?

 

[bengasman]

...I do not and never have worked for or have any affiliation with Ideal Boilers.

I do agree that some of the past products have been a tad iffy....

That is about the same as saying there was some sort of problem with the nation's finances when Gordon Brown was finished.