Gas, have the rules changed?
- Thread starter richardrich79
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Then again they sell consumer units ... they're not legally responsible for who does what with what they buy there.
Cheers
Richard
That is true, but there is a sense of what they offer being within the reach of the mainstream diyer, and making it seem like a normal diy job, which a gas fire fit is not.
Think most unexperienced diyers would be put off by the complex appearance of changing a consumer unit, but if they can find the gas pipe, well it's only adding one pipe to it. And people might think if bnq sell the kit it must be ok to do it.
Think most unexperienced diyers would be put off by the complex appearance of changing a consumer unit, but if they can find the gas pipe, well it's only adding one pipe to it. And people might think if bnq sell the kit it must be ok to do it.
Shock horror, body with vested interest makes false statements in favour of their members getting work.
While it is true that some things need notifying, it's completely false that only Gas Safe members can fit them, and it's completely false that only Gas Safe members can notify. It IS legal for someone to notify LABC and fit their own gas appliance - provided they are competent to do so. Membership of Gas Safe is not a pre-requisite of being competent, nor it is a guarantee of competence.
It's even legal for (eg) myself to do so for a friend - provided there is no consideration given or expected.
See http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2451/regulation/3/made
3. (1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.
The following paragraphs do NOT apply to a homeowner doing DIY - because in that situation there is no "employer", and the regs specifically say "The employer of …", and "… no employer shall …". Thus the only requirement is that the person doing the work shall be competent - which is down to the definition I gave earlier and does not involve anything to do with the Gas Safe Register.
There is quite a parallel situation in the electrical side. While the regs are less restrictive, bodies like ESR make statements which, while technically aren't a lie, are very carefully worded to give people the false impression that only their members are allowed to do domestic electrical work. But again, the fact that a trade body tried to make people use the services of it's members is about as much of a surprise as finding out that the pope is Catholic, and bears crap in the woods.
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roberta1000
I'd disagree with that - I've seen dozens of CUs fitted by diyers. I don't really think it makes much difference that the sheds sell them as it's just as easy (cheaper too) to pick them up from the likes of Screwfix. I think B&Q have always sold some gas fittings and appliances anyway as well as their myriad electrical stuff.
Similar to the Gas Safe register, bodies such as NICEIC, NAPIT etc. (I'm NICEIC regd) do a lot of tub thumping about the advantages (nay, necessity!) of using their members but in all truth these organisations are a complete waste of space, using their members isn't generally legally necessary, and registration is nothing more than a tax on the professions.
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I think the definition is down to what your insurance company (and maybe a court of law) would decide if your gas works go dangerously wrong. How are you going to demonstrate to either that you are "competent"? And why is your LA going to sign it off on your say-so?
Cheers
Richard
Which still doesn't make it a legal requirement for a Gas Safe registered person to install a gas fire.
The 2013 revision to the Building Regs makes most electrical work non-notifiable - the same issue applies that your insurance company may try and wriggle out of a claim if your DIY burns the house down. But then, if the work you do is notifiable and LABC signs it off, then the insurer would have the onus of proof put on them. As to what the LABC would require, well that's a matter for them - they cannot (AIUI) refuse to allow notification of works, but they may stipulate requirements as to qualifications of someone to "sign it off".
The 2013 revision to the Building Regs makes most electrical work non-notifiable - the same issue applies that your insurance company may try and wriggle out of a claim if your DIY burns the house down. But then, if the work you do is notifiable and LABC signs it off, then the insurer would have the onus of proof put on them. As to what the LABC would require, well that's a matter for them - they cannot (AIUI) refuse to allow notification of works, but they may stipulate requirements as to qualifications of someone to "sign it off".
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You are most definitely wrong, you might want to go check recent court cases in regards illegal gas works and judgements that were made, especially the one that went though to Maidstone CC.
Competent is someone who is qualified to work on gas, that means doing an ACS and passing, that is legally the only way to demonstrate competence.
I'll just have to disagree with you there.
References ? Context is everything, and I don't doubt that people have been in court over it - as we all know, there's good DIY, and "oh my god" BIY.
Wrong. It is ONE way of demonstrating competence.
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I am not going to spend much time on this thread, mostly due to this comment, but, in the legal sense of the word, how do you think one demonstrates competence. For example, you are now in front of a local magistrate who has just passed this up to Crown to proceed as a criminal case.
What is your defense?
Edit: Context
Base your reply on the fact you are not qualified to work on gas and you were working on your mates boiler (no payment, naturally) and an error on your part, caused the deaths of 4 people in that property.
And suppose the same outcome, but you do have qualifications ? Yes it DOES happen that 'professionals' cock up. Or are you one of those who believe that it can't happen to you because you have the right piece of paper ?
I can't comment on the case you are quoting from as I don't know what it is (references ?).
I can't comment on the case you are quoting from as I don't know what it is (references ?).
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This is a politician answer, you have not answered the question.
Forget who i am and/or if qualified Gas Engineers make mistakes.
You are so confident of the right answer in your subsequent posts, be a gentlemen and answer the question.
Do not worry about that for now.
You've asked me a question, without giving all the details required to be able to answer it. When you complete the question I'll have a go at answering it.
Otherwise, answer this - you're in court, charged with manslaughter, what's you're defence. No further details, no details of when or how this is alleged to have happened, what's you're defence ?
Lets take two extremes shall we ?
At one end, the guy was a BIYer with no clue, altered some gas piping and didn't even consider the possibility of any leaks, there was a leak, and the house blows up. I wouldn't defend that.
At the other end, suppose the boiler needed a new part. He fitted the new part, tested for leaks and there were none, but the part itself was faulty and caused a leak that blew the house up. In that case, please tell me what your bit of paper has to do with it ?
So like I say, context is everything. If you won't give the context, then don't expect an answer.
Otherwise, answer this - you're in court, charged with manslaughter, what's you're defence. No further details, no details of when or how this is alleged to have happened, what's you're defence ?
Lets take two extremes shall we ?
At one end, the guy was a BIYer with no clue, altered some gas piping and didn't even consider the possibility of any leaks, there was a leak, and the house blows up. I wouldn't defend that.
At the other end, suppose the boiler needed a new part. He fitted the new part, tested for leaks and there were none, but the part itself was faulty and caused a leak that blew the house up. In that case, please tell me what your bit of paper has to do with it ?
So like I say, context is everything. If you won't give the context, then don't expect an answer.
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Right, before we move on, answer the question. How does someone not qualified to work on gas, demonstrate competence in a court of law? You suggested there is another way, what is it?
You do not need any other details to answer this question.
You do not need any other details to answer this question.
OK, you are deliberately shifting the goalposts a little at a time. So lets get one thing out of the way - being qualified does NOT mean the same thing as being on the Gas Safe Register. Secondly, being competent does NOT mean the same thing as being qualified.
Now, it again comes down to details - which you persistently refuse to supply having raised the case of someone having to defend himself in court. So I can only make general statements.
For example, we're it a case of "gluing a few copper pipes together" then I'd point to something like 4 decades of experience doing it, and having the ability to test for leaks.
As another example, lets suppose it was taking the front off a boiler to access the (non gas) bits (replace the water pump for example). I'd get an example and ask how much training it really needs to visually inspect the seal before replacing the cover and securing it with two screws (something the pros seem incapable of doing on mine BTW).
If it were adjusting burner pressures and testing the flue gas - then I wouldn't be stood in court because I wouldn't be doing that as I'd feel it was outside of my competence (and available tools).
So as I say, context is everything and you refuse to supply it - having raised the spectre of being in court for multiple manslaughter and still apparently having this false belief that competent = on Gas Safe Register. The latter is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition to satisfy the former.
Now, it again comes down to details - which you persistently refuse to supply having raised the case of someone having to defend himself in court. So I can only make general statements.
For example, we're it a case of "gluing a few copper pipes together" then I'd point to something like 4 decades of experience doing it, and having the ability to test for leaks.
As another example, lets suppose it was taking the front off a boiler to access the (non gas) bits (replace the water pump for example). I'd get an example and ask how much training it really needs to visually inspect the seal before replacing the cover and securing it with two screws (something the pros seem incapable of doing on mine BTW).
If it were adjusting burner pressures and testing the flue gas - then I wouldn't be stood in court because I wouldn't be doing that as I'd feel it was outside of my competence (and available tools).
So as I say, context is everything and you refuse to supply it - having raised the spectre of being in court for multiple manslaughter and still apparently having this false belief that competent = on Gas Safe Register. The latter is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition to satisfy the former.
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