Bathroom downlighters

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I want to replace the single ceiling light in my bathroom with eight individual downlighters, plus an extractor fan, all switched from the existing switch.
The downlighters are mains voltage LED's, IP65 rated, and I want the fan to come on with the lights and stay on for a few minutes after the lights go off.
Are there any wiring diagrams available to show how the existing wiring to the ceiling light should be reconfigured for the new arrangement?
Thanks
 
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Your ex fan will require a fan isolator and down fusing to 3A.
If any electrical work is undertaken in the bathroom zones, this will require an application to building controls under notification. Any newly fitted electrical equipment will also require 30mA RCD protection.
Joints/junction made must be accessible for maintenance, inspection and test.
If joints/junctions are made in inaccessible locations they must be made via maintenance free methods.
The ex-fan you purchase should have wiring diagrams included.
 
I want to replace the single ceiling light in my bathroom with eight individual downlighters
Doesn't the fact that you'll need 8 times as many lights as you had before give you a strong hint that the new ones aren't actually that good at doing the job you want them to - i.e. lighting up rooms?

Also, are you fully aware of all the work that you'll have to do in the loft in order to fit those sorts of lights in a bathroom? Assuming you have a loft above the room that is. If it's somebody else's flat, forget it, you'll not be able to build a sealed enclosure around the lights. Ditto if what's above is a flat roof.
 
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Thanks for the replies.
The reason I want to use downlighters instead of a single fitting is because I have knocked two rooms into one to create the bathroom, and a single fitting will not give an even spread of light in the new room shape. Also, I like downlighters :) BAS - why do you suggest that downlighters are not that good?
The loft space above the bathroom is fully accessible, and if necessary I will be fitting firehoods to cover the fittings.
The extractor fan will be fitted in the loft as part of the lighting circuit, with ducting to a vent in the bathroom ceiling. All light fittings are IP65, but are above 2.4m from floor level, so not strictly in any zone.
There are wiring diagrams with the fan, I just wanted to be clear on how the overall setup of lights and fan should be wired to replace the existing single light fitting.
Thanks
 
If the extractor is required by building regulations and you have natural light then using the lights as the only trigger is not acceptable.

Down lights in the main need to be aimed at a light surface. If that is done they work well giving a near shadowless light. But aimed down at a dark floor they are useless.

As to wiring diagram it depends on what exactly you have. Using a double pole light switch one can have both a push button and come on with lights. In the main the delay function is built into the fan so you have permanent line and switched line.

It may be better to use a PIR for the fan and have no connection to lights.

The problem is fans do fail and clearly when they do you don't want to lose lights. Be it an isolator or a switched fused connection unit it needs to be switched off if there is a fault.

Since you have not said if there are windows and if so if they open can't really give a diagram.
 
Thanks for the replies.
The reason I want to use downlighters instead of a single fitting is because I have knocked two rooms into one to create the bathroom, and a single fitting will not give an even spread of light in the new room shape.
Fair enough, but do you need 8 times as many lights?


Also, I like downlighters :)
What is it you like about them?


why do you suggest that downlighters are not that good?
First, I am assuming that you are talking about small ones, i.e. ones which take MR16 sized lamps. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with "downlights" per se, i.e. recessed lighting, but they need to be larger. The little 2" diameter ones came out of the retail display market, where they were originally appropriated from semi-professional film projectors designed to throw a narrow beam of light onto a screen and were used to throw narrow beams of light onto individual items. That's why a common term for them is spotlights.

In other words they are specifically designed to do the exact opposite of what you want lighting for general room illumination to do.

I often refer to them as torches, and if you look at the business end of a Maglite you'll see a marked similarity to an MR16 lamp.

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The loft space above the bathroom is fully accessible, and if necessary I will be fitting firehoods to cover the fittings.
Firehoods are not what's needed - they aren't sealed. You should have properly sealed enclosures over the lights, no leaks in them and no leaks between them and the ceiling, as the aim is to prevent warm moist air from getting into the loft where it will condense and start to rot the roof timbers. And the air in a bathroom is very moist - I'll bet that even with it warm and with a fan going you will still get condensation, so in an unheated loft it would be even worse. The covers need to be strong enough to support the insulation which you must reinstate, and large enough to provide the clearances the light maker specifies.


All light fittings are IP65
Re the above, remember that the IP rating only applies to the access to the electrical components, it means that water cannot get at them. As a (ridiculously) extreme example to illustrate the point, I could make and sell¹ a light like this:

screenshot_207.jpg


which requires a 1m diameter hole to be cut in the ceiling. It would be IP65, but it would still create a path through the ceiling for air to get into the loft.

¹ "offer for sale" would be more accurate - I doubt I would actually sell any...
 
I'm in a similar position to the OP and feel that (even after lurking on here for ages) I'd like to know the answers to some things...

For the first two an answer of "Because the manufacturers instructions say so" is probably enough, but I'd like to understand why...

1. The OP's fan is going to be in the loft, as is mine. In that case, what is the use of a fan isolator? In the event that the fan needs maintenance, it is of no help to me whatsoever whether the lighting in the bathroom is on or off.

2. Why does the fan cabling need to be downfused to 3A? Normally the fuse is to protect the cable, but what would cause the fan to suddenly require more than 3A anyway? And if it is downfused, do both the Live and the Switched Live need downfusing?

And since we have BAS on the thread...

3. Unlike the OP, I'm not using downlighters. I am going to be using ELV LED luminaires, which are IP44 and require a 76mm hole in the ceiling. Once fitted, they'll be held pretty tightly against the ceiling by their springs. I'm under no illusion that they'll be gas-tight, but I simply can't see that there will be a significant moist-air flow through them. Should I be worrying? There is no insulation above the bathroom ceiling because the cold water tanks are above it.

4. I'll admit that part of the reason I'm not using downlighters is because of BAS' arguments against them (I have a kitchen 'lit' by 14 downlighters, now mostly fitted with LED bulbs, but it isn't very satisfactory). What do we think of the LED bulbs that have surface-mounted LEDs, and therefore ought to have a wide spread of light?

(I am not an electrician. I consider myself competent to do the work I'm proposing, but won't be offended by the inevitable suggestion that I'm not. I have a multimeter and some idea how to use it. None of my work is 'in' the bathroom, rather the opposite, when I'm done there will be no 240V in the bathroom other than an illuminated mirror, and that is a like-for-like replacement.)
 
BAS, the bulbs I am planning to use are GU10 fitting 240v 6.5w LED's, with an angle of 120 degrees, so I'm hoping that these will give a reasonably even spread of light.
The light fittings have very strong springs which pull them tightly against the ceiling when released, although I'm sure the seal is not airtight. Should I use an additional bead of fire retardant sealant to ensure a good seal?
Thanks
 
BAS, the bulbs I am planning to use are GU10 fitting 240v 6.5w LED's, with an angle of 120 degrees, so I'm hoping that these will give a reasonably even spread of light.
As he said, because of their history, BAS still tends to think of downlights as 'spotlights' (i.e. narrow beam angle) and seems to overlook the fact that bulbs/lamps with wide beam angles are now available.

If your bulbs really do give a 120° beam angle (with the fittings you are using) then, assuming the ceiling is at about 2.4m, just one of those would illuminate a circular area of about 8.3m diameter at floor level, and about 4.8m diameter on a surface 1m above floor level - a lot better than most torches!

I have to say that, unless you have a really massive bathroom, I would wonder whether you would really need anything like as many as eight 120° lights.

Kind Regards, John
 
4. I'll admit that part of the reason I'm not using downlighters is because of BAS' arguments against them (I have a kitchen 'lit' by 14 downlighters, now mostly fitted with LED bulbs, but it isn't very satisfactory). What do we think of the LED bulbs that have surface-mounted LEDs, and therefore ought to have a wide spread of light?
Saying a downlight is no good is a bit like saying a car headlight is no good. There are lots of designs available. I have fire rated & sealed LED (COB) downlights and the light output is actually TOO bright for most people, thankfully they are dimmable. eg, I fitted 4, one in each corner of a room that is 6m x 4m. When on it is like daylight filling the room (I actually fitted them to be for background lighting). I fitted them with old style fittings in mind, I could have got away with halving the fittings I used but I guess it's easier to dim what you have than try & fit more once boarded & plastered.

I'd personally want downlights in a kitchen or bathroom, old fashioned fittings tend to collect grease or simply do not light the area without shadows (as they are normally central to the room and you tend to stand over the worktop). Each to their own but I'd take a look at what lights are available before saying they are useless.
 
1. The OP's fan is going to be in the loft, as is mine. In that case, what is the use of a fan isolator? In the event that the fan needs maintenance, it is of no help to me whatsoever whether the lighting in the bathroom is on or off.
It's sometimes like the 'may contain nuts' warning.
Whether the instructions are for your or the product's safety, or merely quoting an electrical regulation which they wrongly think is applicable, is not known.

2. Why does the fan cabling need to be downfused to 3A? Normally the fuse is to protect the cable,
You are correct.

but what would cause the fan to suddenly require more than 3A anyway?
It's not that it will require more current.
If a motor jams it will draw more current which could melt the cable.

And if it is downfused, do both the Live and the Switched Live need downfusing?
I have heard that the switched live does not require fusing as it is just a trigger and carries minimal current but the Instructions nearly always show both fused.

Having said that, there are fans whose manufacturer does not demand a fuse so who knows.
 
I have heard that the switched live does not require fusing as it is just a trigger and carries minimal current but the Instructions nearly always show both fused.
That's largely true of every timer module I've ever taken apart - there is invariably a very high value resistor (commonly 150kΩ - 200kΩ) in series with the S/L input - which limits the possible current to a minute level. However, I suppose that doesn't preclude the possibility that the resistor will somehow 'fail' in short-circuit mode, or that a S/L-N fault may occur upstream of the resistor.

Kind Regards, John
 

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