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Except there are migrants that work, and migrants that don't. There is a big Roma community in London that just beg and steal, but I don't think they are on benefits. Where I am in Thanet, there are some streets that have constant fights between the Roma's and the one of the other community groups, and none of them work so they hang around on the streets all day. The local doctors surgeries have a high number of obvious foreigeners, as does A&E, so It's not as straight forward as it seems.

I know a lot of Poles and Lithuanians that want to work for a better life, and I also have a Russian tenant, and they're fine, but there are a lot with families here, and there are schools that have a high immigrant contingent, and they seem to work harder (and be more polite) than the home grown bunch. I'm a second generation immigrant, and so will they become, and this country has always thrived on immigration and will continue to do so, but it does need managing except the EU won't let us.

The real truth about this referendum, is that governments don't have the experience to run the country (or any for that matter), and we are heading for a cataclysmic problem sooner or later.
 
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Except there are migrants that work, and migrants that don't. There is a big Roma community in London that just beg and steal, but I don't think they are on benefits. Where I am in Thanet, there are some streets that have constant fights between the Roma's and the one of the other community groups, and none of them work so they hang around on the streets all day. The local doctors surgeries have a high number of obvious foreigeners, as does A&E, so It's not as straight forward as it seems. And the migrants of today, will become the pensioners tomorrow, who will then need more migrants to look after them.

I know a lot of Poles and Lithuanians that want to work for a better life, and I also have a Russian tenant, and they're fine, but there are a lot with families here, and there are schools that have a high immigrant contingent, and they seem to work harder (and be more polite) than the home grown bunch. I'm a second generation immigrant, and so will they become, and this country has always thrived on immigration and will continue to do so, but it does need managing except the EU won't let us.

The real truth about this referendum, is that governments don't have the experience to run the country (or any for that matter), and we are heading for a cataclysmic problem sooner or later.
 
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She came over as being a hysterical interventionist that wanted to shout down the opposition, just like the rest of the Remainers.

I thought Jeremy Paxman never had control last night and allowed the Remainers to browbeat the Leavers when they were trying their best to make reasoned points.
 
Mikefromlondon said:
even if we stop immigration, our own population is bound to go up,
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You're quite right, and that is an argument against uncontrolled immigration. We have a problem to start with, so let's not exacerbate it.

many I met had worked on Olympics Stadium ( which incidentally may never have been completed in time if more than 50% of the workforce from Europe didn't participate) many of those have now gone back after they worked hard and saved money here
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That is a logical fallacy; because they stadium was completed with 50% EU workforce you imply it could only have been completed that way. If we had instead invited thousands of Somalians to do 50% of the work you would be making the same point but for Somalians.

why did we not invest in other poor countries like Africa, if we had, today all these people from Africa wouldn't have a need to risk their life to cross Mediterranean sea
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We did -it was called the Empire! It had mixed results.

If you go into an NHS hospital you are likely to meet a German doctor, a Philipina nurse, a Bulgarian cleaner, an Italian midwife, a Polish maintenance man.
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I was visiting my local hospital last week and most of porters I saw were Jamaican, most of the non-British doctors appeared to be Indian, and most of the waitning patients were elderly Muslim women.
What of it? It doesn't matter what your immigration policy is, filled roles are by definition filled; there is no predeterminism that says hospital roles must be filled by EU citizens otherwise they won't be filled at all.
 
Gerrydelasel said:
I was visiting my local hospital last week and most of porters I saw were Jamaican, most of the non-British doctors appeared to be Indian, and most of the waitning patients were elderly Muslim women.
What of it? It doesn't matter what your immigration policy is, filled roles are by definition filled; there is no predeterminism that says hospital roles must be filled by EU citizens otherwise they won't be filled at all.
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It's very strange that none of the foreign nationals you quote are likely to be EU migrants, yet you use them as examples.

Maybe your fantasy that leaving the EU will end immigration is irrational.
 
JohnD said:
It's very strange that none of the foreign nationals you quote are likely to be EU migrants, yet you use them as examples.
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That was precisely my point -you reported seeing roles being dominated by EU migrants (implying we must have free EU migrants to fill hospital roles), I reported the opposite. M

Maybe your fantasy that leaving the EU will end immigration is irrational.
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I don't want to end immmigration -no one does. I just want the sovereign ability to legislate it for ourselves. You may say "but if we want to remain in the common market we will have to accept free movement anyway", which may well be true, but if we do choose that then at least it is a choice, and we can unchoose it at any time if we see fit. Outside the EU we have the option.
 
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Gerrydelasel said:
(implying we must have free EU migrants to fill those roles)
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I implied no such thing.

I did however make reference to the fact that the NHS only manages to stagger along by relying on foreign workers to prop up its staffing. This is an inconvenient fact for the Outist anti-foreigner core supporters.

If you want to know why our schools and hospitals are underresourced in some areas, start by looking at yourself. Why have you got a government which knows it has an ageing population making greater demands, and a population which in some areas is growing, and has decided to make inadequate provision of public services? Is it because we haven't cut taxes for the rich sufficiently? Is it because we haven't spent enough on the banks? Is it because our nation is led by multi-millionaire old-Etonians who wouldn't recognise an NHS waiting room if they saw one?

Do you disagree with the views of the NHS and BMA articles?
 
JohnD said:
I did however make reference to the fact that the NHS only manages to stagger along by relying on foreign workers to prop up its staffing.
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I agree with that, I just don't see it as a reason for uncontrolled immmigration. I see it as an argument for inviting required professionals into the country, from anywhere, in the same way Australia or Canada do, and as we once did.

Is it because we haven't cut taxes for the rich sufficiently?
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Perhaps. High taxation of the rich does discourage investment. But has the situation changed so very much since Labour were in power?

Is it because we haven't spent enough on the banks?
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The EU is bail-out happy, but I have no influence over them. I can at least vote for a British government that claims to be less bail-out happy.

Is it because our nation is led by multi-millionaire old-Etonians who wouldn't recognise an NHS waiting room if they saw one?
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Unlikely. It was the Etonian fathers of our present Etonians who created the NHS in the first place.

Do you disagree with the views of the NHS and BMA articles?
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Which ones?
 
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