Extension to quote for

[babyseat]

Hi all,

Just after a bit of advice. I'm a builder and went self employed about a year ago. Work seems to be going ok, and I have a fair bit lined up for next year, the jobs are getting bigger as well after the first year of doing anything that came my way just to keep working.

I am speaking with someone about building a reasonable sized double story side extension for them and am due to go round to discuss the project with a view to quote and (hopefully) start it next year.

The work itself is fairly straight forward and doesn't particularly faze me, but this will be the biggest job I have taken on by myself, so am wondering if there are any questions I should be asking him when I go round, or anything I should be thinking about when I'm working out the quote.

I'm generally ok at working out quotes just basing it on time and materials, Its the little things I may forget to thing of in advance which I'm worried about.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

 

[Doggit]

You're main problem, will be the contract you draw up, and the stage payments that you seek. If this is you're biggest job to date, then you don't want to overextend yourself.
You seem to know everything else, and really, it's the client that should be asking you questions.

Contact us again when you've seen the job, got a copy of the plans, and taken some photos.

 

[Notch7]

Hi all,

Just after a bit of advice. I'm a builder and went self employed about a year ago. Work seems to be going ok, and I have a fair bit lined up for next year, the jobs are getting bigger as well after the first year of doing anything that came my way just to keep working.

I am speaking with someone about building a reasonable sized double story side extension for them and am due to go round to discuss the project with a view to quote and (hopefully) start it next year.

The work itself is fairly straight forward and doesn't particularly faze me, but this will be the biggest job I have taken on by myself, so am wondering if there are any questions I should be asking him when I go round, or anything I should be thinking about when I'm working out the quote.

I'm generally ok at working out quotes just basing it on time and materials, Its the little things I may forget to thing of in advance which I'm worried about.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

Do your costing methodically.

Make sure you include costs for: awkward access for diggers etc, difficult road access which can make skips and merchant deliveries time consuming. Allow for preparation and cleaning up.

Quotation / contract: get everything in writing, or it will be assumed it will be included in the price. Ideally do a spreadsheet and split into sections and list everything. Architects do it so you might have an example from an old job as a template.

How will you deal with variations to contract? The biggest upset on jobs is often 'extras'

Research the likely foundation depth. Check on site for trees in zone of influence, ask neighbours that have had extensions to get some anecdotal evidence of ground.

Make sure you include on quote that your price covers a foundation of X width and Y depth. Same for floor, specify if std oversite, so if it goes to block and beam thatll be extra.

Put in PC for brick price -Ive been caught by a brick that turned out to be a special at £1.40 / brick......

 

[babyseat]

Thankyou both for your replies.

Doggit, I think that's a good point. Do you have any suggestions to how I should suggest stage payments etc. Is it normal for them to be done at certain stages of the build i.e. foundations poured, ground floor in, brickwork finished etc. Would it work if I was to say payment every 2 weeks/month based on the percentage of the whole job completed?

Notch7, I would list everything that is included on the quote and any caveats for things like depth of foundation, type of brick etc. Your right about making sure it is clear what is included in the quote, hadn't thought about the PC price for the brick so thanks for that!

Any other thoughts on things which may or have caught people out when quoting for jobs? I remember a bloke I worked for years ago who forgot to put in his first ever quote about the price for foundations only being up to a pre determined depth and that anything deeper would be an extra. He ended up having to do twice the depth he quoted for so double work, muckaway and concrete costs. It would have put him out of business before he started if the customer wasn't so understanding!

 

[Notch7]

Take photgraphs of driveway, front lawn, trees etc. If the drive is in poor condition make sure you discuss with customer about potential damage from deliveries.

Im just finishing a job which has a tight bend in the drive. We had a delivery and the driver went right over the grass, which the customer ranted on about. However hes had loads of other work going on and its in a much worse state now, but he is still trying to blame me, as our delivery caused the initial damage.

What Im saying is, if access is tricky, either include an extra cost for renedial work, or put in a caveat that the awkward access means subsequent repair will be extra.

If the drive is very new, charge for cost if 18mm shuttering ply or osb.

Include caveats for foul drainage and rain water.

What often happens with rear extensions is the foundation quite often digs through the house soakaway, so it all has to be renewed. Also if you allow for a soakaway, specify what it is, 1 cube metre rubbke filled etc. That way if it has to be a 2metre siakaway with crates, you can charge extra.

I assume your customer is providing building regs drawings? Make sure you have a caveat stating work is done on the basis all necessary permissions have been obtained by customer.

Before you start work, make sure you have a clear understanding of the planning permission dimensions, especially heights. Height is tricky as it depends on which ground level its taken from. There are plenty of examples on this forum and others of people building something, neighbours complain, planning officer then decides its wrong. It may not be the builders error, but the job comes to a halt causing cashflow issues and labour scheduling.

 

[babyseat]

Good idea about taking lots of photos beforehand. I guess the thing to do is just make sure everything is worded right in the quote, and it is clear exactly what is covered and what is not. I like the idea of highlighting potential issues beforehand like possible damage to the driveway/deliverys not being able to be dropped close to the job etc.

Do you have any advice about payment schedules? How do you think I should word it and how would I break it down into stage payments? Do you normally ask for any money upfront? I'll be getting a lot of materials on account so should have some money from the job before I have to pay for them, but will have to pay upfront for B.C.O. and skips

 

[Notch7]

How do you think I should word it and how would I break it down into stage payments? Do you normally ask for any money upfront?

I only deal with orangeries, upto around £100k mark. I expect a 2 storey extension could be a lot more. I tend to do about 5 or 6 stage payments.

I expect builders on here could advise on typical stage payments for a 2 storey job. IE a deposit, then draw at footings done, 1st floor, roof plate, roof on etc etc.

A deposit is necessary and you should take payment before you schedule your resources. I say that because a good builder I know had a £650k job booked, he had turned other jobs down to do it and it got cancelled a few days before starting. The builder has about 8 subbies he uses basically full time and he had to quickly tty and find some work for them all.

Some bigger jobs are done under a JCT or similar contract. I think they have monthly valuations, so a surveyor assesses work to date and agrees a figure each month. Im not saying you would choose that route, but it gives an example of regular payments.

Be careful to mention that final balance payment is due on practical completion of original contract, so if there are lots of finishing extras like floor tiling, skirting, wardrobes or whatever, put them on a separate contract.

 

[noseall]

Any other thoughts on things which may or have caught people out when quoting for jobs?

I forgot to cost for lintels once - never again. I now have a schedule that I refer to when doing my cost breakdown. It lists all the obvious things as well as few obscure ones like a garage door or a crane or a concrete pump or a roof tile bumper etc.

Just be aware of the time consuming elements of a build such as roof valleys, vaulted roof insulation detail, large masonry gables etc. There can be large areas of a build that get built quickly and cheaply. And there can be small concentrated areas of a build that cost a disproportionate percentage of the budget.

There can also be huge differences in cost for similar performing materials such as (plain) clay tiles v's concrete, pine T&G flooring v's chipboard, acoustic plasterboards v's standard, XHD duty lintels v's standard duty lintels etc.

Make sure you read the drawing properly and have an understanding of what questions you need to ask both the customer and the architect. I remember spotting the spec' for a XHD lintel in the nick of time. The architect had listed it in his notes but had illustrated it on his drawing as a standard fella. Look out for deep drains close to the foundation dig.

Enjoy the learning curve!

 

[noseall]

Do you have any advice about payment schedules?

Make it clear that they are funding the job - not you. It is perfectly acceptable to ask for payment once you have started on site. You will need to pay for plant, skips, grabs, all of which will need to be paid for more or less immediately. You should also expect your first stage payment (up to 1/5th of total cost) once you have the base up to DPC, including say drainage.
Another payment at either first floor joist level or wall plate.

Roof complete.

Windows in and/or knock through complete.

Completion.

We actually schedule our payments upon either the need for cash flow or the end of the month.

 

[babyseat]

A deposit is necessary and you should take payment before you schedule your resources. I say that because a good builder I know had a £650k job booked, he had turned other jobs down to do it and it got cancelled a few days before starting. The builder has about 8 subbies he uses basically full time and he had to quickly tty and find some work for them all.

What would you say is reasonable to ask for as a deposit, would it be a percentage of the job or a set amount?

I forgot to cost for lintels once - never again. I now have a schedule that I refer to when doing my cost breakdown. It lists all the obvious things as well as few obscure ones like a garage door or a crane or a concrete pump or a roof tile bumper etc

By schedule do you basically mean a list of things to refer to which should cover any eventuality?



Thanks for the replies so far, theres some sound advice there which will come in very useful.

 

[Doggit]

This is all a bit hypothetical at the moment, but I would say you've actually got enough to go on with for the minute. What you need to do now, is assess and cost the job, then come back with something for us to look at. The thing to keep in mind, is not to overstretch yourself, and as Noseall has said, they should be funding the job, not you - you're initially funding you're time, and holding back about 5% at the end of the job for snagging issues, but the stage payments keep the job rolling through, and you can only work that out when you know the cost and length of the job.

 

[noseall]

What would you say is reasonable to ask for as a deposit, would it be a percentage of the job or a set amount?

A set amount. Whatever is needed to keep the job fluid.

By schedule do you basically mean a list of things to refer to which should cover any eventuality?

​

Correct. A list I have compiled and added to, myself.

Be on the ball when ordering materials bearing in mind that some may not be readily available. The last job I did involved using Staffs blue plain clay tiles. I had to get the eaves tiles from one location and the tile 'n' halves from 20 miles in another direction. The 500 or so extra plains required, I cobbled together from 2 different suppliers also.

 

[babyseat]

I think Doggits right, I probably have got enough to go on with for now, anything else I ask is just hand holding!

I'm going to meet them next week so thanks to you all for your advice and happy new year!