Gas Fire Efficiency Figures ... Puzzling me

[wbmkk]

We are going to get a new gas fire, which will follow from the removal of an old Baxi boiler (long time disconnected, but still in place) and the wooden surrounded gas fire.

My wife has picked the glass fronted Montana Royal 4 HE fire from Crystal Fires https://www.flames.co.uk/gas-fires/crystal-fires-royale-4-sided.html although I preferred the Manhattan, from the same manufacturer https://www.flames.co.uk/gas-fires/crystal-fires-manhattan.html or the Rocco from Flavel which actually has a slightly longer guarantee https://www.flames.co.uk/gas-fires/flavel-rocco-he.html

Anyway .. for option one the Energy Efficiency is shown as

Montana Manual: 72%
Montana Remote: 77%

but then it says ..

Useful Energy Efficiency Net .. Montana: High 81% / Low 60%

I'm thinking 80% would be .. pay for £100 of gas and get back £80 of heat only .. OK

but getting only £60 back is a bit of a shocker

BTW .. just received texted prices ... Montana fitted £1399 and the Manhattan £1899

Are these prices reasonable for

Cut off temporary .. gas supplyu to gas fire
Remove old fire and boiler
Break out brickwork as required for new fire
Install lintel
Brick up opening
Plaster Repair

Install fire
Connect gas

thanks !

 

[FiremanT]

Gas fires are always much more efficient on HIGH than low. Your figures are about the norm for an HE.

Beware free extended warranties. Both of those you mentioned are typical. The warranty DEMANDS an annual service with written evidence. Fair enough. But they also DEMAND the replacement of the ODS. These cost anything between £25 and about £70. In the event of a warranty claim, Crystal will demand a receipt for the ODS PLUS the invoice number (supplied to the installer) for the part.

The upside is that warranty claims are rare. It does not cover coals or any decorative element. Or the glass window - which WILL stain beyond effective restoration. They are exoensive to teplace.But think carefully about paying a premium price for a service to cover a rarely utilised warranty.

 

[FiremanT]

Also, you did not mention the quote including the removal of the flue liner. This MUST be removed, and it's likely that the flue will need sweeping, dependant upon we wether a solid fuel fire was used prior to the boiler installation

 

[muggles]

Also, you did not mention the quote including the removal of the flue liner. This MUST be removed, and it's likely that the flue will need sweeping, dependant upon we wether a solid fuel fire was used prior to the boiler installation

Was just about to say that - your installer must not reuse the existing liner, and you may well need a new liner installing depending on the condition of the chimney. Carbon monoxide can seep through gaps in bricks and mortar into bedrooms, so if the internal condition of the chimney is suspect a new liner is essential to ensure you can sleep at night and still wake up the next morning

 

[wbmkk]

Also, you did not mention the quote including the removal of the flue liner. This MUST be removed, and it's likely that the flue will need sweeping, dependant upon we wether a solid fuel fire was used prior to the boiler installation

yes .. he did mention removing flue liner and the chimney cowl, as well as sweeping the chimney.

Full marks to you for knowing your stuff 10/10

 

[wbmkk]

.. think carefully about paying a premium price for a service to cover a rarely utilised warranty.

So which of the three fires mentioned would you go for .. Crystal have the 5 year guarantee and Flavel 7 years. the fire we have now (and to be honest very rarely use) is well over 25 years. I say we rarely use, but the hope is in future, we'll just heat the lounge and ignore the rest of the house for most of the time .. like the good old days .. prior to CH

Or the glass window - which WILL stain beyond effective restoration. They are exoensive to teplace.

So .. would you avoid fitting a glass fronted fire

ONE MORE THING .. How about fitting an electric fire

I have always imagined electric heating to be much more expensive than gas and of course, if there is no gas, people have no other choice. is it worth considering this as an alternative option? It's just for sitting watching TV in the evenings. Lounge measures 2.6m x 6m

 

[FiremanT]

Electric IS much more expensive to use, but normally cheaper to buy and fit.

Either fire is okay. I wouldn't get too hung up over the warranty. Most of my customers hot fed up paying for a part that rarely fails if the service is done properly (ie by me ). Ask the retailer which bits ARE covered, and how often does he change them. Remote control repairs are expensive, so it could be argued the warranty on those have a value.
If you go for a RC, the Crystal (unless things have changed) use a much simpler RC. I never recommended the Flavel RC. My preference is for slide control but are generally not on Hole in the Wall fires.

Re the glass. A residue is left behind which makes the screen cloudy. It does though, increase efficiency. Ask how easy it is for YOU to remove to clean. I think you may find the Crystal is easier. And do it.

Good luck

 

[wbmkk]

Many thanks FiremanT for the detailed reply, or rather replies

I'm certainly no fan of a fire needing a remote control .. a gimic i think

My wife's fire choice is manual .. so I guess she's going to win .. AGAIN !!!

 

[flameport]

I have always imagined electric heating to be much more expensive than gas

It is, and for the main heating source electric should be avoided unless it's the only option.

Does the room have any other heating in it? If the fire is only used as a secondary heater or as a decorative item, the running costs will be minimal.

 

[alan333]

I'm certainly no fan of a fire needing a remote control .. a gimic i think

Had a living flame gas fire for about 10 years - used it all the time, loved the cosy feeling in the lounge but the rest of the house being cooler. Always wished it had a remote control. Consider getting comfy on the couch, feet up etc, just getting to grips with the movie's plot - then the room gets too hot and it's your turn to get up and turn it down. A bit like having a tv without a remote control in modern times. It'd be different if you only want to have the fire on at Xmas etc, but if you intend to use it regularly then I recommend getting a remote one.

 

[FiremanT]

Had a living flame gas fire for about 10 years - used it all the time, loved the cosy feeling in the lounge but the rest of the house being cooler. Always wished it had a remote control. Consider getting comfy on the couch, feet up etc, just getting to grips with the movie's plot - then the room gets too hot and it's your turn to get up and turn it down. A bit like having a tv without a remote control in modern times. It'd be different if you only want to have the fire on at Xmas etc, but if you intend to use it regularly then I recommend getting a remote one.

Lazy bugger.

RC's are great for those who need them. However there are 2 types: One requires the pilot to be already lit (manually via piezo) to function. These obviously waste pilot gas. But they are much more straightforward, and relatively rarely fail. I always preferred to sell these. The remote function is limited to UP & DOWN/OFF. In the event of failure, it can be operated manually:


The more techno advanced (Fully sequential). These can turn in the fire from OFF, from the remote. They eat batteries, and we always advised to leave the pilot ON, as the major consumption was in the initial sequence. Moreover, if the unit fails for any reason, on most fires, there is no manual over ride, so the fire is either OFF or ON or halfway UP or DOWN ( ). The only way to turn off the fire, on some, is to turn the gas off at the meter,
as we generally do not fit user controlled isolation valves to fires:

In truth,the convenience afforded by RC's, IMO, especially the FS, are not worth the potential cost and aggravation.

And, before anyone makes a comment, when I sold fires every day that was exactly my advice. Som took it, some didn't. But they could never say they weren't warned. CYA is nothing new

 

[FiremanT]

Lazy bugger.

RC's are great for those who need them. However there are 2 types: One requires the pilot to be already lit (manually via piezo) to function. These obviously waste pilot gas. But they are much more straightforward, and relatively rarely fail. I always preferred to sell these. The remote function is limited to UP & DOWN/OFF. In the event of failure, it can be operated manually:


The more techno advanced (Fully sequential). These can turn in the fire from OFF, from the remote. They eat batteries, and we always advised to leave the pilot ON, as the major consumption was in the initial sequence. Moreover, if the unit fails for any reason, on most fires, there is no manual over ride, so the fire is either OFF or ON or halfway UP or DOWN ( ). The only way to turn off the fire, on some, is to turn the gas off at the meter,
as we generally do not fit user controlled isolation valves to fires:

In truth,the convenience afforded by RC's, IMO, especially the FS, are not worth the potential cost and aggravation.

There are also the very advanced ones with built in thermostats, but I can recall selling only one - on a gas coal effect stove

And, before anyone makes a comment, when I sold fires every day that was exactly my advice. Som took it, some didn't. But they could never say they weren't warned. CYA is nothing new