Installing marble mantle and surround before new gas fire is fitted

[FiremanT]

I was googling the regulations and came across this on a few sites :

All open fires, whether you intend on burning solid fuel or gas, need a hearth — unless the manufacturer’s instructions state otherwise. A hearth should extend forwards from the fireplace opening by 300mm and 150mm on either side. These measurements should be taken from either the front of the fireplace opening or, where the fire is recessed into the opening, from the front of the burner


Tell me if I am incorrect, but isn't the hearth going to be projecting forwards 300mm from the opening as it's 300mm deep, hence complying?

Or does the hearth have to project 300mm from the furthest edge of the front face of the fire as I get that the fire itself will have some projection on the hearth

Our posts crossed! Hopefully my previous one will explain. The 300 is from the front face of the panel. But one had to consult the manufacturer instructions. Some fires need 350mm. But yours wont

 

[olly330]

Thanks FiremanT.
I had a HETAS guy come look at it yesterday and give a quote for doing the work including fitting the fire.
He said the current fireplace opening needed to be lowered to match the new hearth, and that I needed the chimney sweeping, even though the chimney has only ever had a gas fire in it.... Does the chimney need sweeping if its only ever been a gas fire that was being used until recently?

He also said the chimney pot should be replaced and a solid fuel cowl is optional but a good idea to stop birds and rain. Please see pics below for the current chimney to see if what he said is correct? (ours is circled in red)

His quote:
Fireplace installation £450.00 - This includes taking out base rerouting pipe sweeping of chimney and fitting of fireplace and fitting of burner all joints will be filled
Chimney pot £150.00 - as above flaunched with concrete
Solid fuel Cowl fitted £75.00 - to stop rain and damp and birds nesting in there

 

[FiremanT]

duplicate

 

[FiremanT]

Thanks FiremanT.
I had a HETAS guy come look at it yesterday and give a quote for doing the work including fitting the fire.
He said the current fireplace opening needed to be lowered to match the new hearth, and that I needed the chimney sweeping, even though the chimney has only ever had a gas fire in it.... Does the chimney need sweeping if its only ever been a gas fire that was being used until recently?

Hmmmm..

Why are you hiring a HETAS guy? HEATAS is for solid fuel. SF installers tend to be more expensive than gas installers, IMO.
He may also be Gas Safe, but check that he is, and that he has a gas fire ticket:

Check an Engineer - Gas Safe

There is still the the question of your equipment. I am 99.9% sure that the hearth is not big enough. Did the HETAS guy look at it? what did he say?

The function of the hearth is to prevent heat from affecting the floor covering or surface, and to provide a physical and psychological "barrier" to
any individual from getting to close to the fire. Please check the MI's. Once a fireplace is fitted, there is no going back.

The nearest I can find to your model is:
http://www.focalpointfires.co.uk/app/uploads/2016/08/HE-instruction-manual-issue-J.pdf

Look on page 3. It shows the minimum of 300mm from the back panel. That is not achievable with your kit.

Re the terminal. That terminal in your picture is a GC1. Did he explain why it should be changed? It is a GC1. Unless it is of a construction type with a plastic inner (I forget the name), it is suitable for the gas fire. The other one (presumably your neighbours?) is a more modern version, and a new one costs about £20. It is factually incorrect to say that he can use any SF terminal for a gas fire. A SF terminal generally has a larger mesh than a gas one. You can get a SF cowl, to which you add a mesh of the correct size for gas. The following link shows a SF cowl NOT suitable for gas. I add this for illustration only as, obviously, I do not know what type of cowl he is quoting for:

YBS Chimney Birdguard Aluminium & Stainless Steel 240 x 310mm | Chimney Cowls | Screwfix.com

This type is a GC2, (for gas) and being masonry, tends to be quieter than metal:

https://www.aboutroofing.com/clay-g...mcqk60ZyFHXSP9h3VfwUHEYnb2n6uHrRoCN08QAvD_BwE

Technically, a flue MUST be swept if it has been previously used for SF or oil. There is no specific requirement to do so if it has only been gas. However, there could be debris or cobwebs present, necessitating a sweep. I always carried brushes, but only used them in a "clean" chimney, such as yours probably is.

He is correct about the back hearth needing to be as low as the front hearth (obvious if you think about it )
Unless it is poured concrete, I find the easiest way to deal with that is to remove the back hearth material completely, and bed in a small slab, filling the edges to create a smooth base. If it is poured concrete, you end up chipping/breaking away to to just below, and then filling and smoothing.

EDIT: Where fire manufacturers have different models of a similar fire, they tend to be the same product, but with different trims. You said that your fire seems to be the same as the Elegance, for which I cannot find MI's, which specifies hearth depth. However, the specs for the Elegance and the Blenheim, for which I quoted the heart requirements earlier are identical. This reinforces my original belief regarding your hearth. It is disappointing that none of your "professionals" (especially the shop) appear not have taken this on board when quoting or advising.
http://www.focalpointfires.co.uk/product/elegance-brass-
Blenheim Brass – Focal Point Fires

 

[FiremanT]

Thanks FiremanT.
I had a HETAS guy come look at it yesterday a

Just had a thought about that terminal. The terminal is fitted to the stack without a pot. there is nothing wrong with that. However, more often than not, when that is seen it implies that there was, at some stage in history, a back boiler with a flue liner.

You need to ensure that there is now NO flue liner fitted. If there is, it must be removed.

 

[olly330]

Thanks for the detailed reply and taking the time.

In regards to the terminal, he didnt explain why it needed to be changed apart from mentioning back draught. There was a gas fire installed previous to this so I would think there wont be a problem with the current terminal then if it complies and is GC1.

In regards to the fire, I have found the manual, it says 'hearth must extend 300mm infront of the fuel bed'.
As im not clued up in the terminology, where would the 'fuel bed' be positioned, behind the hearth or on it? This hearth would probably be a no go then...
Non of the gas fitter or hetas guy mentioned anything....
Is is a matter of safety then, and how deep would a normal hearth be. Its going to be such a headache having to send this back and get another one.

 

[FiremanT]

Thanks for the detailed reply and taking the time.

In regards to the terminal, he didnt explain why it needed to be changed apart from mentioning back draught. There was a gas fire installed previous to this so I would think there wont be a problem with the current terminal then if it complies and is GC1.

In regards to the fire, I have found the manual, it says 'hearth must extend 300mm infront of the fuel bed'.
As im not clued up in the terminology, where would the 'fuel bed' be positioned, behind the hearth or on it? This hearth would probably be a no go then...
Non of the gas fitter or hetas guy mentioned anything....
Is is a matter of safety then, and how deep would a normal hearth be. Its going to be such a headache having to send this back and get another one.

At last

Seriously, though, the front of the fuel bed is normally directly behind the rest face of the panel. I did notice that reference to the burner, and it is unusual for MIs to specify that. The regs do, but if one is reading the MI's, it would be difficult to work out precisely WHERE the front of the burner will be, and especially so if you have little or no experience with fires. This renders the MI's useless. But, TBH, it is a Focal Point Fire, who enjoy no respect in the fireplace world.

However, it does mean that your combination of equipment is non compatible, and there is no easy way out.
Durhamplumber is to be thanked, as it was he who first spotted the fireplace manufacturers statement that your mantle was specifically designed for an electric fire. 'Twas only then that I looked at the hearth and other factors, to see why.
Your options are limited:
You could proceed with the work, but in the knowledge that it is wrong.

There is no gas fire that will comply with that hearth, so you could try to return the fire and go for electric

You could contact the marble manufacturer, to see if they can supply a bigger hearth, but most firms only do their standard thing, and would charge the earth for a special. EDIT: Just did quick research on Celsi, and it is owned by CFM, who are a gas fire manufacturer. Unless they have bought out a marble maker (they are specialists in buying out bankrupt/struggling gas fire manufacturers), they will be buying them in - so will not do specials. They would not, anyway

If the problem was smaller, I would suggest fender. The dimensions of a fender around the hearth counts towards the hearth size. We did that a lot, but it is normally only good for about 3 - 4 inches, but you may find something.

You could try to find a shop that deals with CATERHAM Granite (Caterham fireplaces). They do special sizes. Matching marble is notoriously difficult, but they may help. An alternative to a bigger hearth would be to convert the hearth to an "inlay" hearth. Essentially, you get a material in a contrasting colour. A hearth to the correct dimensions is then constructed, but with a "hole" where the original hearth is. So the new kit wraps around the old hearth. Caterham is actually very good value for specials, but they only deal with business', and not every shop is prepared to mess about with this type of work.

Frankly, as you only paid £340 for the fireplace, I suspect your best option will be an electric fire, or try to sell it on and buy the proper kit. When did you buy the fireplace? Have you gone past the point where you can return it via your distance selling rights (or whatever they are called these days). You will lose your return delivery charge, but may be the best bet.

Another point, but now possibly moot. The rear of the fireplace would need to be blocked in. The HETAS guys may have allowed for this, but I suspect their credentials. Please check them, and let us know.

EDIT: To answer your final question: A "normal" hearth for a gas fire with a surround is 15". But even that would probably not be deep enough, because of how far forward your panel is. The panel is set further forward to allow the body of the electric fire to sit between the panel and the wall.

 

[dilalio]

Its going to be such a headache having to send this back and get another one.

A headache would be the least of your worries if an incorrectly installed gas fire led to your house being raised to the ground.
I think you have had some very generous and excellent help from @FiremanT and you should follow it to a T (pun intended).

 

[olly330]

Cheers all especially FiremanT, I asked the questions to the HETAS guy and he hasnt got back to me, but its pretty clear that this surround is not suitable so will have to flog it on ebay as im way past the return date.

As money is tight i have a look on ebay and spotted this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stone-fi...345315?hash=item4d778f0c63:g:QLkAAOSwnspbR5yY


Can anyone forsee any issues with this one, I can see its got glue marks and adhesive on the back etc but im hoping to clean them off and it should look decent when cleaned up unless im missing something.

 

[ianmcd]

yes that one should be ok, that is a gas fire that it is pictured with fitted and the hearth is the correct size

 

[FiremanT]

Cheers all especially FiremanT, I asked the questions to the HETAS guy and he hasnt got back to me, but its pretty clear that this surround is not suitable so will have to flog it on ebay as im way past the return date.

As money is tight i have a look on ebay and spotted this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stone-fi...345315?hash=item4d778f0c63:g:QLkAAOSwnspbR5yY


Can anyone forsee any issues with this one, I can see its got glue marks and adhesive on the back etc but im hoping to clean them off and it should look decent when cleaned up unless im missing something.

Yes, as per Ian, it looks fine.

Has it been dismantled yet? If not, do not part with cash until you have seen it in the component parts. It is easy to damage depending on fixing method.
TBF, that set up is SO much easier to fit nicely than your other. Assuming the "body" is in one piece

 

[olly330]

Cheers, its dismantled but seller says its only 2 pieces (hearth and backpanel/mantle/pillars in 1 piece), so that would help with installing as you say FiremanT.

I have got a separate joiner from the builder who says he can fit it, he reckons the back panel 1 piece just needs screwing into the wall using the 4 screw holes shown in the pics, along with tile adhesive between on the back of the panel and wall, any gaps to be sealed using intumecent sealent.
He said the fire base needs breaking up and leveling to hearth using cement, with the hearth sitting on a bed of about 5mm sand/cement cow pats to secure it to the floorboard. Does that sound right?

 

[FiremanT]

I have never seen one fitted with 4 screws that way! But that is not to say it is wrong. As long as not too much pressure is exerted by the screws - the marble will crack. Otherwise fine.
I think I mentioned previously that I used PVA to prevent leeching.
If the floor is basically level in all directions and 90 degrees to the wall, I use to lay the hearth straight on the floor. I used (self cut, slender) wooden wedges to level and stop any rocking. Then trim back wedges flush and seal using clear silicon. This stopped anything being spilt from running under and secured the hearth and wedges.
But we all develop different techniques and preferences

 

[FiremanT]

''

 

[olly330]

All done, found a really reasonable Hetas guy who fitted the eBay one I bought and swept the chimney at the same time for £100 which was a really great price. He said the cowl outside is all fine in contradiction to the other guy who wanted ££££s. Just waiting for the gas fitter to install the fire.

Thanks for all the advice as saved me from big problems, I owe you all a drink or 2.