Fire Angel Smoke/Heat Alarms

[JohnW2]

I've personally only ever used Aico smoke/heat alarms so am not really able to answer questions that I've recently been asked.

In terms of 'the general', I've seen quite a few negative comments about them (but nearly always 'vague and non-specific) - but the products seem ubiquitous, and come from a very long-established,large and seemingly reputable UK company - so I would imagine that, in general, the products are probably 'OK', despite their being quite a lot cheaper than the Aico products. Any comments (particularly any specific reasons for avoiding them)?

The specific question I was asked (which I can't really answer, despite a fair amount of searching on-line) is whether the only difference between the SW10-EUT and the SW1-R (both mains-powered with battery back-up) is that the former has a (replaceable) lithium backup battery, whilst the latter has an alkaline battery? If that is scase, the fact that there is about a 100% (about £20) difference in price seems hard to understand/justify, since the difference in prices between the batteries is far les than that.

Can anyone help?

Kind Regards, John

 

[Murdochcat]

The sealed ones die before the end of the warranty period is my experience of investigating them.

Pure cheap rubbish

 

[JohnW2]

The sealed ones die before the end of the warranty period is my experience of investigating them. .. Pure cheap rubbish

Fair enough, but if by "sealed" you mean those with a non-replaceable battery, that doesn't apply to the question I asked, because both the SW10-EUT and the SW1-R appear to use replaceable batteries. The only difference I can see being that the former appears to comes with an alkaline battery and the latter with a lithium battery (in both cases, the battery having to be installed by the installer.

In any event, "dying before the end of the warranty period" is presumably preferable to dying after the end of the warranty period, isn't it? Like Aico ones, all FireAngel alarms seem to have a 5-year warranty.

Anyway, I would still like to know if there are any other differences between the two products I've mentioned, other than the one I've mentioned.

 

[Gigagator]

For me (and possibly for Murdochcat) it's a case of what is morally right.
These are devices which are designed and sold to the consumer to protect them and their loved ones from a horrendous death in the case your home goes up in flames.

My experience with FireAngel is poor - bought a few sealed units for my elderly grandmother and they started having battery issues well short of the designed lifespan of the product.

Were they in warranty? Yes.
Did the manufacturer replace them with little fuss? Yes.
I suppose if that is all you care about then they are tolerable.

However, the replacements had exactly the same issue, in fact they were worse and I recall the batteries were failing less than 12 months later.
This was quite distressing for my grandmother with poor mobility in her late 80's, being woken in the dead of night to loud bleeping sounds as the devices were warning of low battery.

I purchased them on the understanding they had a 5 (or 7? Can't remember) year battery life and would not need attending to during that time.

They failed to live up to that claim. When you consider that the device is designed to save your life and those of your nearest and dearest, it is completely unforgiveable. If they cannot be trusted for the product to last as long as they say it will, how can I trust it will wake my family up in the night as smoke fills the air? I can't - which is why they all got ripped out and replaced.

I will never again knowingly give my hard-earned money to a company that clearly has such disregard for the quality of their product.

And what are you really saving in going with a FireAngel product over Aico for example? A couple of quid.

In my opinion, it is not worth the price of life.

The point of a smoke alarm (or any type of device like this) is not just to tick a box, it needs to perform it's task if the unthinkable happens. I cannot trust that a FireAngel product will.

 

[Murdochcat]

Fire safety isn’t something to go cheap and nasty on

@JohnW2

Why are you asking ?

 

[JohnW2]

For me (and possibly for Murdochcat) it's a case of what is morally right.. These are devices which are designed and sold to the consumer to protect them and their loved ones from a horrendous death in the case your home goes up in flames. .... In my opinion, it is not worth the price of life. .... The point of a smoke alarm (or any type of device like this) is not just to tick a box, it needs to perform it's task if the unthinkable happens. ....

I agree with all that but everything you go on to say appears to relate to batteries, not the actual product......

My experience with FireAngel is poor - bought a few sealed units for my elderly grandmother and they started having battery issues well short of the designed lifespan of the product. .... However, the replacements had exactly the same issue, in fact they were worse and I recall the batteries were failing less than 12 months later. I purchased them on the understanding they had a 5 (or 7? Can't remember) year battery life ...

In context, I would therefore say the following .....

(a)... The two FireAngel products I'm talking to are both mains-powered ones, the batteries only being there as back-ip in the event of mains power failure. Hence, whilst battery failure may be a nuisance./inconvenience (the low battery alarming 'beeping') it will not put anyone's life at risk.​

​

(b)... The two FireAngel products I'm talking about are not 'sealed'. Both have replaceable batteries ,which are 'supplied' - and, indeed, the installer has to 'unpack and install' during the initial installation.​

​

(c)... The instructions for the two FireAngel products I'm stalking about indicate which batteries are required -​

​

... for the SW1-R and ....​

.... for the SW10-EUT. I can but presume that the batteries supplied with the products are one of those listed., and would not be at all surprised if other manufacturers (such as Aico) recommend and provide exactly the same ('reputable') batteries.​

..... I will never again knowingly give my hard-earned money to a company that clearly has such disregard for the quality of their product. ...

As above, if the problems you've experienced are those of premature battery failure, I cannot really see how you can blame FireAngel, nor can I see why you feel that another brand of product (such as Aico), which may well use the same batteries, would necessarily be any more 'trustable'.

It's not as if we are talking about a battery that it normally 'used', in which case its life would be determined by the current drawn from it in relation to its capacity. These are just 'back-up' batteries from which current is virtually never drawn - so we're really talking about the "unused shelf life" of the batteries - and it is only the manufacturer of the battery (not the products using it) that can have any control over that.

And what are you really saving in going with a FireAngel product over Aico for example? A couple of quid.?

I suppose that depends upon what you regard as "a couple of quid". This discussion arose in relation to a property which probably requires about six such alarms. The price difference is something like £10 per unit, so maybe around £60 total. However, more to the point, if (as is quite possible) the Aico products use the same battery, then that extra "couple of quid" would be totally wasted in terms of perceived avoidance of premature battery failure.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Fire safety isn’t something to go cheap and nasty on

I agree. However, I am yet to be convinced that the cheaper is necessarily any nastier in this case. It is certainly no longer true (in any context) that 'more expensive' necessarily means 'better' and/or 'more reliable' - it often just means 'more profit'..

@JohnW2 Why are you asking ?

I'm asking, because I was asked. However, the primary question was about the difference (if any, other than the type of battery) between the two products I mentioned - a question which no-one yet seems to have attempted to answer. I raised the more general question (as well as my specific one) because I knew jolly well (as you rapidly confirmed) that someone would jump in with vague 'anti-FireAngel' comments

With your great experience, have you encountered many cases of 'failure' of (mains powered) FireAngel products other than 'premature failure' of the back-up battery?

 

[Murdochcat]

I agree. However, I am yet to be convinced that the cheaper is necessarily any nastier in this case. It is certainly no longer true (in any context) that 'more expensive' necessarily means 'better' and/or 'more reliable' - it often just means 'more profit'..

I'm asking, because I was asked. However, the primary question was about the difference (if any, other than the type of battery) between the two products I mentioned - a question which no-one yet seems to have attempted to answer. I raised the more general question (as well as my specific one) because I knew jolly well (as you rapidly confirmed) that someone would jump in with vague 'anti-FireAngel' comments

With your great experience, have you encountered many cases of 'failure' of (mains powered) FireAngel products other than 'premature failure' of the back-up battery?

I'll get my coat then.

You clearly want people who will go along with you and no descent.

As far as I'm concerned Aico = consistent quality and reliability, Fire Angel = unreliable - probably because its cheaper.

You have to ask yourself why do the majority of Sparks fit Aico?

Bye

 

[flameport]

The rechargeable version will have additional circuitry to charge the battery, and the voltage monitoring will be different. This will mean either an entirely separate PCB design, or the same one with various additional components installed.
It's not just a case of a different battery.
There are other factors which will affect price such as who the different product variants are marketed to and what sales volumes they have for each.

 

[JohnW2]

The rechargeable version will have additional circuitry to charge the battery, and the voltage monitoring will be different. This will mean either an entirely separate PCB design, or the same one with various additional components installed.. .... It's not just a case of a different battery.

Thanks, but now I'm pretty confused. Are you suggesting that some of these "mains-powered" (with 'battery back-up') alarms are not really mains-powered but, rather, are powered by a rechargeable battery which, in turn, is kept charged 'from the mains,?

In the context of my specific question, do you believe that either of these recommended batteries are rechargeable (because I don't ) ...

.... which really takes me back to the question about the difference (if any) between the two products (other than different supplied/recommended batteries and a big difference in price)

I also wonder why they suggest that, in the version that uses an alkaline battery (definitely not rechargeable !), they suggest that the battery is only expected to last about one year (after which replacement is required). If it is literally just sitting there as a 'back-up', I would have thought that it should last more-or-less until the end of its shelf-life - an awful lot more than 1 year in most cases. If it's solely there as a back-up, then the only 'use' it would get would be periodic interrogation to ascertain whether it was 'getting low' - which I imagine should use minimal energy - so, again, I'm a bit confused!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

I'll get my coat then. You clearly want people who will go along with you and no descent.

Not at all. I asked for general comments because I was interested in hearing them - but hopefully not just vague/blanket ones or ones which related to the batteries rather than the products themselves.

As far as I'm concerned Aico = consistent quality and reliability, Fire Angel = unreliable - probably because its cheaper.

As above, I'm interested in hearing something specific rather than just vague/blanket. Asa I've said, my own experience has only been of fitting Aico ones, but I'm not convinced that the extra cost has achieved anything

You have to ask yourself why do the majority of Sparks fit Aico?

Even if it's true (and I don't know whether it is), there could be countless reasons. The most likely is probably "because that's what they've always done", but others include:

because they believe that "more expensive" always means "better quality and reliability​

because it's their customer's money, not theirs​

because they've never really given any proper thought to the question​

etc.​

If one were being cynical, I suppose one might suggest that some electricians might be more inclined (in any context) to install products which were less reliable, since they might then get more work when the productd 'failed'

 

[flameport]

Decent smoke alarms contain a rechargeable battery, which never needs to be replaced. It runs from 230V AC usually, and if that fails the battery will power it until the supply is restored, after which the battery will be recharged.
That is apparently NOT what FireAngel are making.

Other varieties have user replaceable 9V types. When the battery is expended after a year or so, they beep annoyingly, so it's taken down from the ceiling, the battery is removed, and that is the end of the story.
The older variation was that the battery was removed to be used 'temporarily' in the TV remote control or some other device. It was never replaced. This doesn't happen much now as 9V batteries are rarely used in anything else.

That Energizer battery is a non-rechargeable lithium item, of the type which contains a non-trivial amount of actual lithium metal. More of a firestarter than any kind of fire detection equipment.
The only slight benefit is that it would last longer than a typical alkaline battery. The same problems of it being removeable apply.

I do not install FireAngel products and never have.
I did a long time ago install Kidde ones, but after the multiple unexplained failures debacle, never again.

 

[JohnW2]

Decent smoke alarms ....

Thanks. When you say "decent", I presume that you mean "expensive"?

..... contain a rechargeable battery, which never needs to be replaced. It runs from 230V AC usually, and if that fails the battery will power it until the supply is restored, after which the battery will be recharged.

Fair enough. However, loss of mains power for appreciable periods of time is very rare and, if it ever did happen, I think I would probably replace any non-rechargeable back-up batteries. In any event .....

That is apparently NOT what FireAngel are making.

Indeed it's not. However, it's clearly not just a 'brand' issue, since, for example, some Aico ones (e.g. Ei146e) contain replaceable non-rechargeable alkaline batteries - so seemingly no different an approach from the FirAngel ones. Does that mean that such Aico products do not qualify as "decent", even though they come from Aico?

Other varieties have user replaceable 9V types. When the battery is expended after a year or so, they beep annoyingly, so it's taken down from the ceiling, the battery is removed, and that is the end of the story....

As I asked, if the replaceable non-rechargeable battery is just 'sitting there' (virtually never used), why should it be "expended" after a year or so", rather than lasting for at least its full shelf life (typically up to 10 years) ?

That Energizer battery is a non-rechargeable lithium item, of the type which contains a non-trivial amount of actual lithium metal. More of a firestarter than any kind of fire detection equipment.

Do non-rechargeable lithium batteries contain more "actual lithium metal" than corresponding rechargeable ones? As for being a "firestarter", I would have thought that a lithium battery connected to a charger would be more likely to be a "firestrater" than would a non-recharggeable lithium battery which was 'just sitting there'. Am I wrong?
The "decent" ('sealed') ones to which do refer do, of course, generally contain (re-chargeable) lithium batteries.

I do not install FireAngel products and never have. I did a long time ago install Kidde ones, but after the multiple unexplained failures debacle, never again.

OK - so, like me (who has never anything other than an Aico product), I take it that you are not really in a position to comment on the reliability of FireAngel products?

I still haven't discovered whether there is any difference (other than the battery which has been installed) between the two FireAngel products I've mentioned., nor whether people have experienced/encountered problems with any smoke alarms other than battery failure. It seems that people are tending to present theoretical arguments which support the conclusion they want to reach,without really giving any explanation or confirmation that what they are suggesting actually happens in practice.

I should perhaps point out (possibly of particular interest to Murdochcat) that the reason I was aslked the question was because a ('trusted') electrician had suggested that FireAngel products represented a "cost-effective but satisfactory" approach.

Kind Regards, John

 

[flameport]

Does that mean that such Aico products do not qualify as "decent", even though they come from Aico?

I wouldn't fit those, they are primarily available for cheapo landlords and the like who want an exact replacement for existing items. Only a couple still made in that series, and certainly not appropriate for new installations.

Thanks. When you say "decent", I presume that you mean "expensive"?

More expensive than those with user-removeable batteries, however over the 10 year life of the product, there is little difference if the occupier can be trusted to replace those batteries 5 or more times, and anywhere else it's significantly cheaper as a single call out to replace a battery will be more than the savings from installing the cheaper device.
The difference between an Aico 3000 series with rechargeable battery and the 9V alkaline replaceable version is less than £25 per device, and the 9V series comprises two products with basic functionality only.

Do non-rechargeable lithium batteries contain more "actual lithium metal" than corresponding rechargeable ones?

Primary lithium (non-rechargeable) contain lithium metal, rechargeable 'lithium' do not contain any metallic lithium at all, it's all lithium salts, as in lithium-ion.

, I take it that you are not really in a position to comment on the reliability of FireAngel products?

No - never installed any of them, or saw any reason to do so.

 

[JohnW2]

I wouldn't fit those, they are primarily available for cheapo landlords and the like who want an exact replacement for existing items. Only a couple still made in that series, and certainly not appropriate for new installations.

Fair enough. Is your only problem with the replaceable alkaline battery, or do you still have something 'against' FireAngel? As far as I can make out, the FireAngel SM-SN-1 is essentially the same (and about the same price) as the Aico Ei3016, being mains-powered with a sealed rechargeable lithium-ion battery - would you be happy with the FireAngel one?

More expensive than those with user-removeable batteries, however over the 10 year life of the product, there is little difference if the occupier can be trusted to replace those batteries 5 or more times, and anywhere else it's significantly cheaper as a single call out to replace a battery will be more than the savings from installing the cheaper device.

OK - but no-one has yet explained to me why an alkaline battery just 'sitting there' (and essentially 'not being used') should need to be replaced "5 or more times" during a period which may well be roughly its shelf-life. That only really makes sense if it is doing something more than 'just sitting there', although I can't think what!

The difference between an Aico 3000 series with rechargeable battery and the 9V alkaline replaceable version is less than £25 per device, and the 9V series comprises two products with basic functionality only.

Aico don't seem to offer an equivalent, but, as I've said, FireAngel have their SW10-EUT, which has a non-rechargeable lithium battery which, although user-replaceable,they say should last for the 10-year life of the device - so, give or take your concernes about the lithoium metal, would you otherwise be happy with that, since it ought to remove the need for the "5 or more replacements" annd/or call-out fees associated with an alkaline battery?

Primary lithium (non-rechargeable) contain lithium metal, rechargeable 'lithium' do not contain any metallic lithium at all, it's all lithium salts, as in lithium-ion.

Ah, thanks, I hadn't realised that - I had 'assumed that even the primary cells contained only lithium salts! I suppose they must have found a way to make them reasonably 'safe'. As we know from the demonstrations in Chemistry lessons at school, even sodium metal (and, more so, potassium metal) spontaneously bursts into flames on contact with humid air (hence has to be stored under oil), so I would imagine/presume that lithium metal is even 'worse' in that respect!

No - never installed any of them, or saw any reason to do so.

See question above about the FireAngel SM-SN-1. Do you see any reason for not installing that?

Kind Regards, John