Fire Angel Smoke/Heat Alarms

[ebee]

|I think that John is asking for a valid answer to a valid question based on experience and or hearsay.
With the number of Electricians and gifted DIYers on this forum there must be a reasonable number that have formed an opinion due to their own opinions and observations.
I have installed some smoke/fire alarms etc over the years either on initial installation of a mains wiring system or as an add on to an intruder alarm system.
I have used the "brand leaders" as determined upon what the wholesalers stock and although I have noticed The Fire Angel brand in more recent years I`ve never actually used them.
With any smoke detector etc the customer only contacts me to replace any batteries in the case of the bleeping caused by depleted batteries or "false alarms" or some Insurance lead requirement.
The vast majority of folks do not want periodic testing and inspecting of any such systems in order that they save a few pennies to spend on important things like holidays or beer or a new carpet etc.

So, soory John I can not provide any answer to you question.

Remarks like
"I'll get my coat then.

You clearly want people who will go along with you and no descent.

As far as I'm concerned Aico = consistent quality and reliability, Fire Angel = unreliable - probably because its cheaper.

You have to ask yourself why do the majority of Sparks fit Aico?

Bye"

seem to me to be purely down to "this is my theory and any remarks I hear to the contrary I will discount them because they do not fit my theory in the first place and so I will throw my toys out of the pram!" In effect, hearsay rules over logical thought and proper experience.

All John wanted was some idea if they were better, worse or similar to the others and the reasons, if any.

 

[JohnW2]

|I think that John is asking for a valid answer to a valid question based on experience and or hearsay.

I'm glad that you understand.

With the number of Electricians and gifted DIYers on this forum there must be a reasonable number that have formed an opinion due to their own opinions and observations..

Quite so - hence my questions. The sharing of views, opinions and experiences is surely one of the important raisons d'etre of a forum like this, isn't it?

I have used the "brand leaders" as determined upon what the wholesalers stock ....

Same here. As I've said, like so many others I have clearly worked on the 'assumption' (always suspect, and sometimes wrong!) that the "brand leader" (probably aka "most expensive" must be 'better' - and hence have always installed Aico products. However, in discussing the issue with others, I'd prefer not to impose that (possibly incorrect) viewpoint on them - but would rather like to be able to provide more informed/'objective' input.

... and although I have noticed The Fire Angel brand in more recent years I`ve never actually used them.

Same here.

With any smoke detector etc the customer only contacts me to replace any batteries in the case of the bleeping caused by depleted batteries or "false alarms" or some Insurance lead requirement. ....The vast majority of folks do not want periodic testing and inspecting of any such systems in order that they save a few pennies to spend on important things like holidays or beer or a new carpet etc.

Well, for a start, I'm not sure that all that many customers are necessarily aware of that 'choice' (and, after all, for them to favour 'the beer' would be their prerogative, if they were aware of that option!). In any event, whilst it ay well be true that "The vast majority of folks do not want [i.e. would prefer not to have to do] periodic testing, in the case of RCDs they theoretically don't have any choice, yet either of those testing activities may be 'necessary' to optimise the protection of life.

Mind you, moving to 'the technical', I still don't understand what these 'backup batteries' are actually 'doing', other than just 'sitting there' in case they are ever needed in the event of a mains power failure - since, as I've said, if they were literally 'just sitting there', I don't see why they would need to be replaced "5 or more times" during their shelf life!

Remarks like: "I'll get my coat then. You clearly want people who will go along with you and no descent. As far as I'm concerned Aico = consistent quality and reliability, Fire Angel = unreliable - probably because its cheaper. You have to ask yourself why do the majority of Sparks fit Aico? Bye"
.......... seem to me to be purely down to "this is my theory and any remarks I hear to the contrary I will discount them because they do not fit my theory in the first place and so I will throw my toys out of the pram!" In effect, hearsay rules over logical thought and proper experience.

Quite so - but that's his (and a few others') approach to everything, based on his apparent 'vast experience', so he doesn't do 'discussing' - but I don't lose any sleep over that (just laugh a bit )!

All John wanted was some idea if they were better, worse or similar to the others and the reasons, if any.

Sort of - but don't forget that my primary question was about the technicalities of the difference (if any) between two FireAngel products (and I still haven't really had an answer) other than the difference between a replaceable alkaline battery and a replaceable lithium one.. As I've said, I only added the bit about views on FireAngel in general since I knew jolly well (and clearly correctly!) that some 'bright spark' (?!!) would jump in with some essentially unsupported 'anti-FireAngel' comments

Flameport has been helpful in identifying the sort of considerations which lead some people to favour the more/most expensive products, which at least helps in deciding how much weight one should give to such arguments.

It remains the case that I have very rarely heard of any 'failures' of smoke alarms, of any brand, other than battery failures (which do not really relate to the products, per se) - so maybe they are all 'OK' provided the battery does not let them down? In fact, goodnes knows how other 'failures' (of the product itself) would ever be detected, since i'm far from sure what 'pressing the test button'proves - the only sort of testing in which I would have any confidence would be one which involved smoke!

In all the reviewing of the marketplace I've been doing in recent days, the one thing that has rather surprised me is that, despite the 'requirement' for mains-powered, battery-backed-up and interlinked alarms, a fairly high proportion of products currently offered by the major brands seem to fail to satisfy all three of those requirements.

Kind Regards, John

 

[martygturner]

In all the reviewing of the marketplace I've been doing in recent days, the one thing that has rather surprised me is that, despite the 'requirement' for mains-powered, battery-backed-up and interlinked alarms, a fairly high proportion of products currently offered by the major brands seem to fail to satisfy all three of those requirements.

sorry john but what requirements? Lots of should not a lot of must's in building regs regrading smoke detectors.

Personally I am with our local fire brigade, they fit cheapo sealed battery models and tell users to discard after 3 years and fit new. They point out its not the power supply that's the issue its the sensor fogging up as they are, as per normal in this world. tested for longevity under ideal conditions...

 

[JohnW2]

sorry john but what requirements? Lots of should not a lot of must's in building regs regrading smoke detectors.

As you imply, there is a lot of confusion and vagueness about the 'requirements'. As with so many parts of the Building Reguklations (i.e. 'the law'), what it has to say ('the legal requirements') are so vague as to be essentially useless. All it says is...

B1. The building shall be designed and constructed so that there are appropriate provisions for the early warning of fire, and appropriate means of escape in case of fire from the building to a place of safety outside the building capable of being safely and effectively used at all material times

However, in interpreting the law's "appropriate provisions for the early warning of fire", most people will turn to the guidance (not mandatory/law) in Approved Document B - which, in terms of normal domestic premises in England and Wales suggests ('requires'?) at least two of the three things I mentioned (I'm not sure about the 'interlinking' - but see below regarding Scotland), this being guidance essentially backed up by BS 5839-6 (and other standards):

1.1 All dwellings should have a fire detection and alarm system, minimum Grade D2 Category LD3 standard, in accordance with the relevant recommendations of BS 5839-6.
A higher standard of protection should be considered where occupants of a proposed dwelling would be at special risk from fire. Further advice on this is also given in BS 5839-6.
1.2 Smoke alarms should be mains operated and conform to BS EN 14604.
1.3 Heat alarms should be mains operated and conform to BS 5446-2.
1.4 Smoke and heat alarms should have a standby power supply, such as a battery (rechargeable or non-rechargeable) or capacitor. More information on power supplies is given in clause 15 of
BS 5839-6.

I'm no authority on this but it appears that that in Scotland, the law actually requires all three of the things I mentioned (including interlinking) - so my comment was meant to embrace the whole of the UK ...

Every home in Scotland must have interlinked fire alarms.   Interlinked alarms means if one goes off, they all go off, so you will always hear an alarm wherever you are in your home.

Personally I am with our local fire brigade, they fit cheapo sealed battery models and tell users to discard after 3 years and fit new. They point out its not the power supply that's the issue its the sensor fogging up as they are, as per normal in this world. tested for longevity under ideal conditions...

Any smoke alarms are clearly a lot better than none and what you describe sounds reasonable enough,and I would personally probably be comfortable with it. If what you say about the sensor fogging is true, it's a bit naughty of the manufacturers (including Aico!) claiming that their sealed battery ones are good for 10 years service, given that no amount of pressing a test button will identify impaired performance due to sensor fogging!

However, as above, what your local fire brigade are doing would not be consistent with the guidance of Approved Doc B (and quite possibly not compliant with BS 5839-6 etc.) in England and Wales (not mains operated) and probably not legal in Scotland (same reason, plus lack of interlinking).

Kind Regards, John

 

[ebee]

It remains the case that I have very rarely heard of any 'failures' of smoke alarms, of any brand, other than battery failures (which do not really relate to the products, per se) - so maybe they are all 'OK' provided the battery does not let them down? In fact, goodnes knows how other 'failures' (of the product itself) would ever be detected, since i'm far from sure what 'pressing the test button'proves - the only sort of testing in which I would have any confidence would be one which involved smoke!

You can get hold of a can of smoky like stuff to test them with, how near they are in practice I do not really know. One trick I sometimes did was a deliberate puff of cigarette smoke into them and that worked. Probably about as scientific as burning a pan of boiled spuds under them, oh dear.

By the way, Periodic testing I always mention when electric wiring and ditto of alarm systems and smoke detectors etc but I think folk never do.'
typically ten or fifteen years after rewiring including RCDs and drawing attention to pushing the test button every 3 months (as was) and the kettle or toaster or steam iron trips the RCD and you attend and verify the cause and ask them if they regular press the test button and they reply "what is that?" and you explain it all again and then a light shines in their eyes "Oh yes I remember you explaining that to me at the time" . Asking how often they tested it they sheepily admit "Never!" . Well yer tries yer best! LOL

 

[ebee]

To me the simple question for most everyday use is 1/ Are they reliable, 2/ will they give a god warning that battery is ging down but still be capable of alarming for days after that waring first starts & 3/ are the reliably interlinked by wire or wireless. All you need to decide then is where to put them to operate properly and to give best chance of hearing them even if they do not all alarm at once as they should do.

 

[pcaouolte]

However, in interpreting the law's "appropriate provisions for the early warning of fire", most people will turn to the guidance (not mandatory/law) in Approved Document B - which, in terms of normal domestic premises in England and Wales suggests ('requires'?) at least two of the three things I mentioned (I'm not sure about the 'interlinking' - but see below regarding Scotland), this being guidance essentially backed up by BS 5839-6 (and other standards):

1.1 All dwellings should have a fire detection and alarm system, minimum Grade D2 Category LD3 standard, in accordance with the relevant recommendations of BS 5839-6.
A higher standard of protection should be considered where occupants of a proposed dwelling would be at special risk from fire. Further advice on this is also given in BS 5839-6.
1.2 Smoke alarms should be mains operated and conform to BS EN 14604.
1.3 Heat alarms should be mains operated and conform to BS 5446-2.
1.4 Smoke and heat alarms should have a standby power supply, such as a battery (rechargeable or non-rechargeable) or capacitor. More information on power supplies is given in clause 15 of
BS 5839-6.

The guidance quoted above contains the word "should" several times and does not contain the word "must" at all.

I interpret "should" as being good practice but not compulsory and "must" as being a mandatory/legal requirement.

So, in an existing building, it would be good practice to have a fire detection and alarm system but it is not a mandatory requirement. Indeed many buildings have nothing. My buildings insurer asks if I have any smoke alarms but is happy to provide cover if I answer "No" and doesn't offer a reduced premium if I answer "Yes".

Anything extra above the (non-compulsory) smoke alarm would be good practice but again does not seem to be mandatory.

Just my interpretation of the requirements in England & Wales.

 

[JohnW2]

You can get hold of a can of smoky like stuff to test them with ...

I know. I have some, and use it fairly regularly !

 

[JohnW2]

To me the simple question for most everyday use is 1/ Are they reliable, 2/ will they give a god warning that battery is ging down but still be capable of alarming for days after that waring first starts & 3/ are the reliably interlinked by wire or wireless.

Your (3) is easy enough to test, but I don't think we have much idea about (1) or (2).

I suspect that very few people ever test the alarms 'properly' (with smoke), so we don't know how reliable thay are in terms of detecting fires. Similarly, I imagine that even less people test batteries regularly to make sure that they are not going flat without a warning being issued, or leave the low battery warning go on for days whilst regularly testing (with smoke) to find out how long the alarm continues to detect fires after the 'low battery' alarm starts!

So, whilst I agree with you about your three questions, I don't think we can (or do) know the answers to the two most important ones (in relation to devices actually in-service, rather than on a test bench).

 

[JohnW2]

The guidance quoted above contains the word "should" several times and does not contain the word "must" at all. .... I interpret "should" as being good practice but not compulsory and "must" as being a mandatory/legal requirement.

No argument about any of that. As I said, none of the guidance is in any way 'mandatory' or 'required by law', and that would remain the case if the (non-mandatory) guidance said "must".

However, if anyone (ultimately a Court) were asked to rule on interpretation of the incredibly vague requirement of 'the law', I feel sure that they would give a lot of weight to the guidance given in the (government-written) Approved Document

So, in an existing building, it would be good practice to have a fire detection and alarm system but it is not a mandatory requirement.

As above, no-one has suggested otherwise (for England in Wales). In Scotland, it appewars that the law requires all domestic premised to have interlinked mains-powered and battery backed-up alarms (in specified locations)

Anything extra above the (non-compulsory) smoke alarm would be good practice but again does not seem to be mandatory. Just my interpretation of the requirements in England & Wales.

In terms of the law, I'm sure your interpretation is correct (for England and Wales). However, when it comes to matters of 'life and death'; many people probably would like more protection that the law actually requires.

It's exactly the same with electrical safety. The only 'law' (hence the only 'mandatory requirement) id Part P of the Building Regs, which is one sentence essentially saying that electrical work must be done 'safely'. In this case, even Approved Doc P does not help, since it does not address 'electrical details' but most people would regard compliance with the (non-mandatory) requirements of BS 7671 as representing what was a reasonable interpretation of the intended by the very vague law.

 

[ebee]

It's exactly the same with electrical safety. The only 'law' (hence the only 'mandatory requirement) id Part P of the Building Regs, which is one sentence essentially saying that electrical work must be done 'safely'. In this case, even Approved Doc P does not help, since it does not address 'electrical details' but most people would regard compliance with the (non-mandatory) requirements of BS 7671 as representing what was a reasonable interpretation of the intended by the very vague law.

Agreed, treat the wiring regs as if the are actually the law of the land even though they are not.
I imagine the same applies to the highway code and various road traffics acts etc.

 

[JohnW2]

This is interesting - and, unless I can densify a 'catch', may well be something that influences decision making ...

... I've just had a quick look on eBay,and find that, for whatever reason, many people seem to be offering 'brand new' Aico Ei3000 series alarms with 2035 expiry dates for anything from £20 to £30 below the prices at the 'usual sources', bring the prices down to that of most of the other brand products, or even lower!

It really sounds rather too good to be true, but I can't see that they can all be lying about the expiry date and/or selling stolen goods, so I really don't know

Any thoughts?

 

[Jurassicspark]

This is interesting - and, unless I can densify a 'catch', may well be something that influences decision making ...

... I've just had a quick look on eBay,and find that, for whatever reason, many people seem to be offering 'brand new' Aico Ei3000 series alarms with 2035 expiry dates for anything from £20 to £30 below the prices at the 'usual sources', bring the prices down to that of most of the other brand products, or even lower!

It really sounds rather too good to be true, but I can't see that they can all be lying about the expiry date and/or selling stolen goods, so I really don't know

Any thoughts?

Watch out from non genuine items on ebay.

Compare with other genuine sites and if there is a big difference, the bells will start to ring.

 

[flameport]

or do you still have something 'against' FireAngel?

I know nothing of their products.

The vast majority of properties with alarms already in place in this area are Aico.
New ones fit onto the same backplate that's they have been using for the last 25 years, which makes replacements a 10 second job.
All of their alarms are compatible with their older ones both wired and wireless, so adding to existing systems is guaranteed to work, even with mixing wired and wireless in the same property.
New installs get Aico because of these reasons.

Absolutely no reason or benefit to switch to some other incompatible brand just because they exist.

 

[flameport]

I've just had a quick look on eBay,

Ebay - the realm of stolen, fake and broken, and where shady businesses masquerading as 'private sellers' will offload any old tat with no consequences.
Buy there and expect trouble.