New Extension Central Heating Query

[Jazz1966]

Hi,

My friend recently had a two-story extension done to his house.
Building control has not yet signed off the work as 'completed'.

He has hit a snag. In the extension, the builder has added a radiator to each en-suite and bedroom — four new radiators to the 11 he already has in the rest of the house. He cannot get all the radiators to be hot at the same time - the four radiators in the two-story extension in particular seem to be cold, or at best warm and only sometimes.

Initially, it was thought that this was a radiator balancing problem. A plumber has been out and had no luck in balancing the radiators. He thinks that the builder may have made a wrong connection somewhere along the line.

The builder is disputing this and seems to be blaming the boiler. The boiler is a Worcester Bosche 34CDI Combi and has a heating output of 30KW. WB technical support have told my mate that the boiler should easily be able to handle the number of radiators he has.

My mate is caught in the middle of this and would love some advice as to how he can move this issue forwards.

Can anyone advise please?

 

[mrrusty]

If the contract says the builder is to provide 4 working radiators, then that's what he must supply. How he gets there is his problem. Give him a chance to sort it, then advise you will get someone else to sort it and sue him for the additional cost in the courts.

But is the builder the designer? i.e. is it a design and build contract? or is the builder building to a design provided by you and your designers. If the latter, the builder can rightly say, "your design, your problem", although obviously if there is a mis-connection then it's still the builders responsibility.

Of course, chances are there is no contract, and yet again trying to determine design responsibility after the event becomes a PITA.

 

[CountryFan]

Did the builder carry out the heating work or did they employ a plumber? As above, if his heating was working before the work was carried out then it's the builders responsibility to ensure it's all working after the work has been carried out

 

[Jazz1966]

Did the builder carry out the heating work or did they employ a plumber? As above, if his heating was working before the work was carried out then it's the builders responsibility to ensure it's all working after the work has been carried out

The builder carried out the heating work himself. He did not employ a plumber, something that surprised me at the time.

 

[Jazz1966]

If the contract says the builder is to provide 4 working radiators, then that's what he must supply. How he gets there is his problem. Give him a chance to sort it, then advise you will get someone else to sort it and sue him for the additional cost in the courts.

But is the builder the designer? i.e. is it a design and build contract? or is the builder building to a design provided by you and your designers. If the latter, the builder can rightly say, "your design, your problem", although obviously if there is a mis-connection then it's still the builders responsibility.

Of course, chances are there is no contract, and yet again trying to determine design responsibility after the event becomes a PITA.

There is a contract. But the contract is high-level. The builder had the Building Control drawing to work from, but this does not show radiators. My mate was asked by the builder where he wanted radiators and how many.

 

[Jazz1966]

If the contract says the builder is to provide 4 working radiators, then that's what he must supply. How he gets there is his problem. Give him a chance to sort it, then advise you will get someone else to sort it and sue him for the additional cost in the courts.

But is the builder the designer? i.e. is it a design and build contract? or is the builder building to a design provided by you and your designers. If the latter, the builder can rightly say, "your design, your problem", although obviously if there is a mis-connection then it's still the builders responsibility.

Of course, chances are there is no contract, and yet again trying to determine design responsibility after the event becomes a PITA.

The design and building control drawing was done by an architect. This was what was given to the builder to quote on.

 

[stevie888]

The builder carried out the heating work himself. He did not employ a plumber, something that surprised me at the time.

I think that answers the question. We did the exact same thing 30years ago with a then 25 year old boiler. There were (and remain) some over long lengths of 15mm pipe too. This all worked fine and the boiler banged on for another 17 years.

 

[Murdochcat]

The person who installed the pipes is to fault

 

[^woody^]

Building control are not interested in the radiators working. Bizarrely, they only want to record the boiler name to note its performance for net-zero purposes.

It must be a [pipe] circuit or balancing issue. It needs an experienced person to diagnose.

It's a contract issue and payment for this portion of the work should be withheld until it's sorted.

 

[Jazz1966]

The person who installed the pipes is to fault

Builder did it all sadly.

 

[Murdochcat]

Builder did it all sadly.

So its the builders responsibility to fix, at THEIR cost

 

[mrrusty]

So its the builders responsibility to fix, at THEIR cost

Yes, I agree, it should be. BUT with my devils advocate hat on, the builder might say, as he seems to have done, "you instructed me to install and connect the radiators in the position we agreed, but there's nothing in my contract that says I am responsible for the efficiency of the rest of your plumbing system and boiler"

How are you going to prove it's the builder's error, and not in fact, a problem with a blockage in your system, or a weak pump, or too small pipes on the main distribution?. WB might say the boiler is capable, but only if connected to a suitably designed pipework distribution.

This is why I think it is imperative at the start of any works to agree where design responsibility lays. A simple contract specification:-

"This is what I want built with regard to size, shape, finishes. I would like a fixed price, and I don't care too much about the detail of how you do it, but you are responsible for building control sign off. I expect you to ensure everything is fitted to manufacturers instructions so that warranties are valid, and making sure everything works correctly"

This is basically what I have done on the couple of occasions I have had an extension built, and the absolute clarity that it is a design and build arrangement gives certainty, albeit you have to accept that a builder taking on risk will likely have a higher price.

It's a contract issue and payment for this portion of the work should be withheld until it's sorted

Totally agree it's a contract issue, and holding back monies to retain some leverage is a good tactic, but, as above, there is still something of a big step to prove it is actually the builder's problem. As ever, in this sort of dispute it should be "what the contract says", but we all know in domestic situations good, solid contracts are very rare.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

It's supposed to be a DIY forum, but more threads seem to be armchair lawyering about bossing tradesmen about than actually doing anything!

Try putting the heating on, turning the pump to max and shutting all the other radiator valves everywhere other than the new ones.

It may just be trapped air that needs pushing out.

Let it run for an hour. Then, hopefully after bubbling and glugging noises, you need to let it all settle for another hour to get rid of any froth then bleed the radiators. Then check the system pressure and top up via the filling loop if necessary. You'll need to assess what pump speed you need in future, turn it back down, see how it goes then back up if needed.

 

[Jazz1966]

My mate had another plumber have a look. Three of the radiators have been installed upside down!
The diverting valve is on the top, not the bottom. Even though the radiator has clear yellow stickers on it
He will be coming back to correct these and have a go at rebalancing the system.
Sadly, this was not picked up by the previous plumber

 

[jono_h]

Has anyone turned all the original rads off, and just run the 4 new ones? If they get red hot then, it’s probably not a connection issue.

30kW should be plenty for an everyday house - the boiler hasn’t had it’s output restricted in the settings or anything silly?