I`ve already been in touch with CAB and they said pretty much the same as you and have provided a template for writing formally. I`ve put off doing so as it`s a last resort, no going back. TBH I hope they don`t respond as I don`t particularly want them back in my house, I`d rather get someone else to complete and bill them (as CAB suggested)! Thanks for your advice.
new boiler cold radiators where does installers liability end
- Thread starter stevemarl
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I don't know how long you have been without heat and maybe hot water, but no doubt by now you will be in urgent need of a fix. Having given the original company several opportunities to sort it, and them failing, you have good cause to get another company in.
Hi, no there has never been an issue previously maybe the nipples were fitted `just in case`. Or for initial bleeding? I agree it`s an air lock, you can hear jgurgling and bubbling on start up but this NEVER ever happened previously. To me, if you install new parts in `whatever`, and whatever then fails to work, the new parts would be the first place to look? Not blame copper pipes under the floor which have not been touched.
I`m in South Manchester by the way.
Is that a Grundfos UPS3 pump?
There will be a arrow on the side, follow this and see does it go to where the DHW @ CH pipework are teed off.
With the pump running can you post a close up view of the LEDs.
Fair enough: part of the problem is that my ex-partner, as I mentioned, had major open heart surgery last month, really touch &go, she`s very lucky to have survived (ruptured aorta) so that`s been my priority, and still is as she`s very very weak and recuperating at mine. Had a voicemail from company on Friday, but as it`s provbably another demand for payment (yes really!) I haven`t read yet as didn`t want to be ****ed off all weekend
Hi, yes it is, the arrow goes upwards which goes to the ch dhw
Curious what purpose this pipe serves, seems to have some sort of valve in the end?
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Ive had jobs that I know from previous visits that getting the air out after draining the refilling system is a pain.
But I know to preserver as when the air is out the system runs like a cat.
Maybe the boiler engineers where just not as good as the previous engineer who worked on the system.
I think I`d agree with that!
With the following knowledge you might be able to prompt the installers to resolve the issues with the threat that you'll approach local building control with a non compliant system.
Have a glance at Approved Document L vol 1
This is a legal requirement and sections 8.8 & 9.8 refer to commisioning ie. setting up the system and ensuring it's fully functional.
The Benchmark scheme was introduced many years ago to prompt installers to comply. You should have the document either in the boiler install manual (often at the back) or as a separate card. This details aspects of the install..post pics of this but mask your and the installers details.
www.benchmark.org.uk
You should also have a certificate from your local authority stating the install is in compliance with the regs. The installer self certifies and the form is issued a short time after the install. You must have this form...house sales are often held up as conveyancers will insist on it.
It looks a rough install with old redundant valves left on the pipework, no insulation and a cylinder that should have been replaced decades ago. I can't find the regs regarding cylinders but a replacement should have been discussed.
Don't attempt to touch any valves/vents as many will leak as soon as touched and not reseal. Don't meddle with the pump either. Don't bleed the radiators...without check the feed cistern you could suck in debris (the system may not have been cleaned).
Forget any talk of claims court at this stage...it's a very long involved process (I have done it several times and won all cases). It's far more complex process than most realise.
Have a glance at Approved Document L vol 1
This is a legal requirement and sections 8.8 & 9.8 refer to commisioning ie. setting up the system and ensuring it's fully functional.
The Benchmark scheme was introduced many years ago to prompt installers to comply. You should have the document either in the boiler install manual (often at the back) or as a separate card. This details aspects of the install..post pics of this but mask your and the installers details.
What Is Benchmark — Benchmark
www.benchmark.org.uk
You should also have a certificate from your local authority stating the install is in compliance with the regs. The installer self certifies and the form is issued a short time after the install. You must have this form...house sales are often held up as conveyancers will insist on it.
It looks a rough install with old redundant valves left on the pipework, no insulation and a cylinder that should have been replaced decades ago. I can't find the regs regarding cylinders but a replacement should have been discussed.
Don't attempt to touch any valves/vents as many will leak as soon as touched and not reseal. Don't meddle with the pump either. Don't bleed the radiators...without check the feed cistern you could suck in debris (the system may not have been cleaned).
Forget any talk of claims court at this stage...it's a very long involved process (I have done it several times and won all cases). It's far more complex process than most realise.
For the record, here is the mail I got last week after disputing the call out charge (for not getting system running):
Good Afternoon, Steve
After our phone conversation earlier I have sent spoken to Phil Taylor and this is what he had to say - We have been out 4 times for a fault on his system that was nothing to do with the installation work including giving £100 worth of parts to see if that would help. System is getting air locked as poorly piped, leaking valve and other minor issues. We drained down and that may have started highlighted the issue but we can't cover faults not caused by our works.
As far as we are concerned the invoice stands and needs to be paid ASAP to avoid any further action..
(I`ve no idea what the "£100 worth of parts" refers to. They found one of their (new) motorised valves) which wasn`t working... that`s it.
If it was so badly piped they should have made me aware and quoted appropriately. If it was so badly piped how did it work so well before?
Good Afternoon, Steve
After our phone conversation earlier I have sent spoken to Phil Taylor and this is what he had to say - We have been out 4 times for a fault on his system that was nothing to do with the installation work including giving £100 worth of parts to see if that would help. System is getting air locked as poorly piped, leaking valve and other minor issues. We drained down and that may have started highlighted the issue but we can't cover faults not caused by our works.
As far as we are concerned the invoice stands and needs to be paid ASAP to avoid any further action..
(I`ve no idea what the "£100 worth of parts" refers to. They found one of their (new) motorised valves) which wasn`t working... that`s it.
If it was so badly piped they should have made me aware and quoted appropriately. If it was so badly piped how did it work so well before?
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Would the boiler manufacturers be able to help here . I'm not sure they would want there products to seem problematic even if it is not a fault with the boiler they might be willing to check it has been installed properly.
Thanks for that, will look at that later - wasn`t considering legal pathway, I know how fraught that can be! I am aware that corners were cut: they blame leaking valves - which should all have been replaced with TRVs to comply with building regs. And, as for valves, they`ve all been opened during installation, many leaked afterwards. Some repaired at the time, some later by a third party (no name but I`ll call them BG) as I have Homecare...With the following knowledge you might be able to prompt the installers to resolve the issues with the threat that you'll approach local building control with a non compliant system.
Have a glance at Approved Document L vol 1
This is a legal requirement and sections 8.8 & 9.8 refer to commisioning ie. setting up the system and ensuring it's fully functional.
The Benchmark scheme was introduced many years ago to prompt installers to comply. You should have the document either in the boiler install manual (often at the back) or as a separate card. This details aspects of the install..post pics of this but mask your and the installers details.
What Is Benchmark — Benchmark
You should also have a certificate from your local authority stating the install is in compliance with the regs. The installer self certifies and the form is issued a short time after the install. You must have this form...house sales are often held up as conveyancers will insist on it.
It looks a rough install with old redundant valves left on the pipework, no insulation and a cylinder that should have been replaced decades ago. I can't find the regs regarding cylinders but a replacement should have been discussed.
Don't attempt to touch any valves/vents as many will leak as soon as touched and not reseal. Don't meddle with the pump either. Don't bleed the radiators...without check the feed cistern you could suck in debris (the system may not have been cleaned).
Forget any talk of claims court at this stage...it's a very long involved process (I have done it several times and won all cases). It's far more complex process than most realise.
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I disagree. The court fee would be £205 assuming a claim not exceeding £5000. https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/court-fees
The process is quick, easy and fairly informal. Just a judge in chambers, usually a desk between you. The main thing, is to present photos, and written evidence, and to be able to explain that they haven't done the job they were contracted to do, that you have had to employ a n other, to sort it out, where they have failed. No special expertise is needed, the judge will expect an ordinary layman to present the case to him. Costs for a solicitor, or an expert, are not normally allowed, in the claim.
Fact - they have left you with a system which is no longer working!
Fact - they are trying to charge you more to fix problems which they appear to have created, through their own incompetence.
Fact - They have tried, and yet failed to fix it, and expect you to pay them more to try other uncertain fixes.
Fact - they have obviously cut corners and ignored regulations!
A Gasguru correctly suggested, TRV's fitted on radiators are now a requirement, rather than an option. I wonder what other corners they might have cut, during the installation? £4300 is an awful lot of money, to just swap out a boiler, and maybe replace 2-port valves. A straight boiler swap, can be done in a day, for £2000.
If there were any obstructed pipes, these should have been evident, when they supposedly flushed the system. I would like to see what the inside of the bottom of the header tank looks like. If the system has been flushed, there should be no gunge or debris in the bottom. Many boiler manufacturers only guarantee their boilers these days - only if the system is thoroughly flushed out, and a filter fitted in the return. Has a filter been fitted?
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T/he header tank is quite clean to be fair and they have fitted a Bosch magnetic filter for the reason you stated.
Is the pump running?, if so what are those colours. Grundfos frequently recommend running at full speed, initially, constant curve III below, one green LED followed by two amber, this allegedly gets rid of the air eventually (I have my doubts about this) but it can create havoc with a OV system like yours if it is or has been left running at this speed as it will pump at a head of 6.4M which can cause pump over into the feed & expansion cistern leading to constant air ingress, if it is running in this mode&setting I would suggest changing it to constant curve I, just one solid green LED, which should still give a more than adequate head of 4.2M and far less chance of pump over, just press the setting button briefly to change settings.
This "valve" you show is probably a manual air vent, if there is a square on the top, a rad bleed/vent key should fit it, ensure you vent this often/repeatedly until all air is gone.
THe section of pipe where the cold feed is teed in frequently gets blocked/partially blocked leading to all sorts of problems, carry over etc and sometimes requires cutting out and replaced with a new section of piping, you could also convert it, like my 53 year old system, to a combined vent&cold feed with a almost 100% guarantee of no pump over.
Can you also follow the pipe back from the pump bottom (inlet), you might see a 15mm pipe with a 22mm pipe a bit further back but no more than 150mm/6ins from it, the 15mm pipe will be the cold feed from the feed&expansion cistern and the 22mm will be the vent that should carry on up and over the cistern and then turn back down with its end pointing into the cistern.
If you wish you can initially run the pump on speed III and look or get someone to look into the cistern and watch for any pump over through that vent on pump start up and again on pump shut down, then change to Speed I and look again in the cistern
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