Lithium powered boat destroyed in Northamptonshire

[Jurassicspark]

That's what I meant about statistics. Like the ones we have for cars, for example, which show that EVs are less likely to catch fire than ICEVs.

But there are a lot of factors why they have a lesser chance of catching fire than ICEV’s.

And correlation doesn't equal causation. The lower number of EV fires could be influenced by factors like newer technology, fewer EVs on the roador stricter safety regulations and not necessarily that EVs are inherently safer if you think that.

So which is better then more frequent fires that are easiet to put out or fewer fires that are far more dangerous?

Should safety be judged by how often something happens, or by how bad it is when it does?

I would ask you to compare the damage caused by lithium battery fires vs the damage caused by other causes.

Would the “other causes be driven by the users mistakes or ignorance?

And if comparing it comes up with lithium batteries causing more severe damage (which they probably do) then are traditional firefighting methods as effective against lithium battery fires as they are with other common fire types?

 

[Jurassicspark]

- wonder if there is a connection with all these wildfires and lithium batteries - just saying! could be being hushed up ......

The real cause is drought, heat and decades of failed forest management

Would you blame a lithium battery for a fire caused by a careless camper’s forgotten campfire or a lightning strike?

 

[bernardgreen]

are traditional firefighting methods as effective against lithium battery fires as they are with other common fire types?

The most "common" fire types require oxygen before materials can burn. If oxygen cannot reach the materials then the materials cannot burn and the fire will die out. Anything from a fire blanket to fire retardent foam will, when used correctly prevent oxygen from reaching the burning material and the fire will die out.

Explosives such as gunpowder create their own oxygen

Lithium batteries when overheated or burning also produce oxygen. Traditional firefighting methods do not work,

Submerging a burning lithium battery into water can cool the battery enough to apparently stop the reaction. Taking the battery out of the water can result in the damaged battery cell(s) heating up and re-starting the reaction,

 

[Jurassicspark]

The most "common" fire types require oxygen before materials can burn. If oxygen cannot reach the materials then the materials cannot burn and the fire will die out. Anything from a fire blanket to fire retardent foam will, when used correctly prevent oxygen from reaching the burning material and the fire will die out.

I know fire requires three components to maintain it heat, fuel, and oxuygen and just cutting off oxygen isn't always a the solution. For eg fuel types (like wood or paper) don’t always burn in the same way and the traditional methods that remove oxygen (such as fire blankets or foam or whatever else) work efffectively for certain fire types, but not all fires behave the same way and in the case of lithium ion battery fires it’s not about just blocking oxygen. They often involve chemical reactions inside the battery that maintain even when oxygen supply is limited. These reactions can continue even in a low oxygen environment. So its not really always about cutting the oxygen its about addressing the chemistry of the reaction happening inside the battery or whatever else. It doesn't have to be a battery.

Lithium batteries when overheated or burning also produce oxygen.

Do they produce oxygen? I never knew that. I may need to do some research on that.

Traditional firefighting methods do not work,

Fire blankets can reduce the fire’s access to air, which is still a basic principle in preventing fire from growing. I'm not saying they only should be relied on during a lithium ion battery fire but could they help if other things aren't available?

What your opinion about class D extinguishers?

Traditional firefighting methods do not work,


Submerging a burning lithium battery into water can cool the battery enough to apparently stop the reaction. Taking the battery out of the water can result in the damaged battery cell(s) heating up and re-starting the reaction,

And isn't that a traditional firefighting method?

Submerging a burning lithium battery into water can cool the battery enough to apparently stop the reaction. Taking the battery out of the water can result in the damaged battery cell(s) heating up and re-starting the reaction,

Occasional.

. Traditional firefighting methods do not work,

Oh so are you saying we just wave the white flag now every time a car catchwes fire or an electric scooter sparks up? Do we stop using water or fire blankets just because some fires are a bit trickier? Is the solution to just stand there and say, “Sorry, this is too complex we can’t do anything”? That is like saying, “Oh a car’s on fire guess there’s nothing we can do” just because EV car fires don’t behave the same as other fires.

Your last post which I quoted was very vague.

 

[SUNRAY]

My son-in-law is an ex fire fighter and the final nail in the coffin persuading him to leave (all of the earlier nails being his new bride) was lithiun fires and the inability to extinguish them, almost their entire action was to prevent the fire speading and hope they can contain it long enough to self extinguish. That is even mentioned in the OP video that they were cooling the rest of the vessel and surrounding property until they were able to sink it.

However lithium battery fire is a chemical reaction as opposed to conventional oxygen fueled combustion and re-ignition is almost a certainty after flooding to halt it. In the case of the boat it was hinted that the gas bottle was removed while submerged.

 

[Adam_151]

Submerging a burning lithium battery into water can cool the battery enough to apparently stop the reaction. Taking the battery out of the water can result in the damaged battery cell(s) heating up and re-starting the reaction,

AFAIK, The latest thinking is to use cooled brine (saltwater) the salt content allows the water to be cooled below zero giving it a higher thermal capacity, while also creating somewhat conductive paths for the battery to discharge into while the whole thing is effectivly in a big heatsink.

With the possible exception of vehicle batteries, most lithium battery fires are a small pack and lots of other stuff burning, and a lot could be prevented by avoiding incorrect disposal. Round here, they try and landfill a minimal amount of rubbish, it either gets recycled or goes to an energy from waste plant. The watse is collected from households by the normal rubbish trucks, it is then deposited in waste transfer stations, where it gets loaded into large HGVs to be taken to the incincerator plants. The amount of fires that are occuring in these transfer sites are now such that systems that watch for hotspots with thermal imagining and automaticalaly activate water canons are having to be installed. I also know of a facility that accepted a load of cardboard and paper recycling, and then burnt down a number of hours later when there was no one on site - the investigation discovered the cause to be... a free lithium battery included with the cardboard....

Hopefully the ban on single use vapes will improve things a bit, but I understand the manufacturers are already exploiting loop holes in the rules

 

[bernardgreen]

Oh so are you saying we just wave the white flag

When faced with a burning lithium battery ( car or solar installation ) the prefered action is to concentrate resources to protecting adjacent property from the fire while allowing the battery to fully self destruct. ( source from a serving fire brigade officer )

 

[fixitflav]

So which is better then more frequent fires that are easiet to put out or fewer fires that are far more dangerous?

On some risk assessment procedure (can't remember which one, or details) the product of likelihood times severity was used to decide on precautionary measures.

 

[bernardgreen]

more information about the explosion

 

[ericmark]

more information about the explosion

Not sure if it has told us anything more? What is of more interest is how, in the light of this, the way the boat is built has changed?

It would seem the big problem was the sealing between the engine compartment and living compartment of the boat. And a route for gases to escape, without causing danger.

I had a lead acid battery in a Land Rover explode, my own fault, and there was warning, I could see the flame inside the battery, and was able to close the bonnet, which was reopened by the explosion, and this just a 60 amp/hour lead acid.

I have seen the seat blown off a 966 digger/loader in Algeria when the alternator was overcharging, it stalled, and I emptied a carboy of distilled water over the driver to wash off any acid, poor guy did not know what had hit him. In that case, two 140 AH batteries in a metal box, and the problem was that metal box, so blast had only one direction it could go, as the catch missing off the battery box lid, I would guess he was smoking.

So we are looking at gas alarms, ventilation, etc. And also some way to direct the blast away from the cabin. Doors designed to open safely in a blast, directing the blast to a safe place.

Since fire appliance already there, one assumes there was some warning?

 

[martygturner]

I can see the reason for fitting solar cells, batteries, etc. But being Eco friendly is not one of them. I have to agree with him there.

We grow trees, we cover up the wood, allow it to compress, then dig up the coal and burn it. Which is no different to growing trees, and burning them without storing first.

Most of the problems are caused by knee-jerk reactions. Which tend to result in using some new wonder product in massive quantities before anyone has had chance to find out if the new wonder product also has problems. And the fast move to new products is often due to government intervention.

There have been new rules, like can no longer put the batteries in the roof space, not because the battery going on fire, but because if something else goes on fire, the batteries stop safe fire fighting.

Lithium cells clearly do have some problems, but as long as treated with some common sense, they can also have a lot of benefits, so either have them very small, so problems are limited, or where it is unlikely to be damaged, and in a narrow boat they are unlikely to be damaged, what one would not do, is fit them to a car, where there is a risk of a crash damaging the battery.

This is why the idea of running cars off North Sea gas was shelved, the tank needed to be kept cool, and at normal temperatures it could not be kept as a liquid, so any damage to the insulation around the tank would mean the pressure relief valve would open releasing flammable gases, I can't see how the problem was any different to using lithium batteries in a car?

We saw governments pushing towards diesel cars, now they are saying they were wrong, but by the time the mistake was realised, we had loads of diesel cars. So be it thalidomide, diesel, asbestos or Teflon coatings, we need to adopt slowly, so if there is a problem we find out before massive harm is done.

err we did not grow those trees they grew all by themselves...coal was formed some 300 million years ago, we are only 300,000 years old... So if we only burnt the tress that we have planted in our life time... oh but hang on we could just stop burning tress as all they do is fix energy produced by the sun, surely technology must have come up with a better way of storing the sun's energy...hang on wait a minute....

 

[bernardgreen]

Since fire appliance already there, one assumes there was some warning?

The "some warning" was raised when smoke was seen in and around the cabin.

That "smoke" was explosive gases created by the battery as it self-destructed.

It may well be that someone informed the fire brigade that a lithium battery may be involved.

 

[flameport]

more information about the explosion

More like speculative propaganda.

 

[JohnW2]

Do they produce oxygen? I never knew that. I may need to do some research on that.

My understanding is that, at least with some of the chemistries, oxygen can be produced at the positive electrodes. However, I'm not sure that this is necessarily particularly relevant, since I also believe that the situations in which very high temperatures, hence potentially fires, arise are largely due to chemical reactions which have noting to do with oxygen.

 

[morqthana]

After looking at the comments on that video, and other material on that YT channel, I have to say I'm not surprised that bernardgreen is familiar with it.