Ceiling Rose Wiring Wrong?

[macman81]

I undid this ceiling rose in order to redecorate the room and found that the wiring appears to be wrong? This is on the end of a circuit, so only one circuit cable. The circuit cable is the one on the left of the pic, the switch cable is on the right (I did a continuity test to establish which was the switch cable). The switch cable goes to a ceiling pull cord switch which is wired correctly (Red to Common, Black to L1). However, there is no earth wire at the switch end, though there is at the rose end.
But the switch cable appears to be wired the wrong way around (Black to the loop terminal, Red to the Line terminal). Should this not be Red to the loop terminal and Black (switched live) to the Line terminal?
The light obviously still works, but am I right in thinking that this is potentially dangerous, as the lampholder terminal is still live even when the pull cord switch is off? If so, should i just transpose the two switch cable wires at the rose? And then tag the switched live?

 

[EFLImpudence]

I undid this ceiling rose in order to redecorate the room and found that the wiring appears to be wrong? This is on the end of a circuit, so only one circuit cable. The circuit cable is the one on the left of the pic, the switch cable is on the right (I did a continuity test to establish which was the switch cable). The switch cable goes to a ceiling pull cord switch which is wired correctly (Red to Common, Black to L1). However, there is no earth wire at the switch end, though there is at the rose end.

Ok.

But the switch cable appears to be wired the wrong way around (Black to the loop terminal, Red to the Line terminal). Should this not be Red to the loop terminal and Black (switched live) to the Line terminal?

I would do it as you say but it doesn't matter.
Were there more cables at the rose, doing it that way round makes it apparent which wire goes to the switch.

The light obviously still works, but am I right in thinking that this is potentially dangerous, as the lampholder terminal is still live even when the pull cord switch is off?

What makes you think that?
It is still controlled by the switch - just a different colour wire.

If so, should i just transpose the two switch cable wires at the rose? And then tag the switched live?

If you want to - or just tag it as it is.

 

[endecotp]

am I right in thinking that this is potentially dangerous, as the lampholder terminal is still live even when the pull cord switch is off?

No.

What's going on with the earths?

 

[Murdochcat]

No.

What's going on with the earths?

Good question

Is this a 1960’s house?

 

[EFLImpudence]

What's going on with the earths?

Possibly cut off in the plastic pull-cord switch.

 

[macman81]

Earths: good question. There are 3 earth wires connected to the earth terminal: one from the pendant lamp holder, and two that are incoming separately from the circuit and switch cables, in black insulation. One presumably goes back to the CU following the circuit cable, but I can't see an earth wire cut off in the switch though, so no idea what the other one is doing?
Yes, it's a mid 60's house, and some of the lighting circuits are not earthed. Other lighting circuits were rewired and earthed when the house was extended.
I'm guessing that at some point an earth wire has been added as a separate cable run for this circuit, but why they didn't continue it across to the switch is a mystery. The pull cord switch and pendant are less than a foot apart.

 

[macman81]

Having looked at this again, and checked the EICR that was supplied when the house was purchased, that lighting circuit is not earthed at all. So, whatever circuit those two earth wires run back to, it's a different one.
If this is what's been done, am I right in thinking that earthing back to a point on a completely different circuit is a definite no-no, in the same way that using a borrowed neutral would be? Isn't it better to just leave it unearthed, and mark it as such at the CU, as has been done?

 

[endecotp]

Having looked at this again, and checked the EICR that was supplied when the house was purchased, that lighting circuit is not earthed at all.

Don’t believe everything you read in an EICR….

So, whatever circuit those two earth wires run back to, it's a different one.
If this is what's been done, am I right in thinking that earthing back to a point on a completely different circuit is a definite no-no, in the same way that using a borrowed neutral would be? Isn't it better to just leave it unearthed, and mark it as such at the CU, as has been done?

No. I’d argue that any earth is better than no earth.

If I were you, I’d invest some time determining where those black wires go, and/or whether they are actually connected to earth somewhere. I’d then consider adding some green/yellow sleeving.

 

[Murdochcat]

Having looked at this again, and checked the EICR that was supplied when the house was purchased, that lighting circuit is not earthed at all. So, whatever circuit those two earth wires run back to, it's a different one.
If this is what's been done, am I right in thinking that earthing back to a point on a completely different circuit is a definite no-no, in the same way that using a borrowed neutral would be? Isn't it better to just leave it unearthed, and mark it as such at the CU, as has been done?

This dates the lighting circuit to the early to mid 1960's

This circuit and probably all other circuits would definitely benefit from a rewire

Photo of the fuseboard?

 

[morqthana]

am I right in thinking that earthing back to a point on a completely different circuit is a definite no-no,

They're all joined together in the CU - there are no separate "earth circuits"

 

[ebee]

Put it this way. The important things are.
Is the polarity correct? The switch is only switching the L conductor not the N conductor - Yes.
Is there an Earth where needed? - possibly although there should be one readily available for future use in case the switch or pendant is changed to conducting material (Metal) .
The actual colour coding looks wrong but electrons do not care about this, a person should not be affected because they should never be opening it up and touching it if they do not know exactly what they are doing . Bad practice but not a present danger to a competent person, more of a nuisance if anything.
There may or may not be other items that need testing and correcting but just from a picture we have no idea but we might have lost a bit of confidence over what else may be lurking.
It is better for earthing to be connected as to identify it to the circuit(s) that it is intended for, this helps prevent it from inadvertently being disconnected in future when working on something else.
If the EICR was done correctly and you have confidence in its accuracy then all should be OK, but as said “we can not tell just from a picture”.
It might be Ok.


You might want to consider getting another EICR done by a completely independent contractor and see if the findings match the first but this will cost you.
That way you could see what it’s likely to cost to improve or replace certain items.

With one way switching such as mentioned in the pull switch it does not really matter which way around the conductors of the L and Sw L are connected to Com and L1, it will still work correctly and safely anyway.

I would be looking for “borrowed Neutrals” due to age and condition of the wiring, it is not uncommon in installations of this age and could be a hazard if anyway is working on an “isolated” circuit in future and gets bitten by a circuit that is not isolated.

 

[macman81]

Yes, the house as built in 1964. Extended in 2021 and mostly rewired at that point, but the original unearthed lighting circuit was left as it was.

 

[ebee]

We have not really had Earthing of lighting circuits and bonding of pipe works etc for that long in the scheme of things. Nowadays we deem them as very important.
Some more tings we now deem important too, like RCDs and some more.
We used to be quite happy with a bit of fuse wire and not much else

Took us a while to really think that electricity might be dangerous. Benjamin Franklin and his key in a thunderstorm didn’t seem to bother him a while back, he lived to tell the tail. Ugg’s I shudder

 

[Murdochcat]

We have not really had Earthing of lighting circuits and bonding of pipe works etc for that long in the scheme of things. Nowadays we deem them as very important.
Some more tings we now deem important too, like RCDs and some more.
We used to be quite happy with a bit of fuse wire and not much else

Took us a while to really think that electricity might be dangerous. Benjamin Franklin and his key in a thunderstorm didn’t seem to bother him a while back, he lived to tell the tail. Ugg’s I shudder

Earthing of lighting circuits date back to about 1965 so I’d call 60 years a long time

 

[ebee]

Seeing I was born in 1955 then from my perspective it is relatively new-ish, it didn’t all get implemented until a fair number of years had past . Ok we had paper and pen (ink bottle and dropper prior platinum pens) and RCDs were quite voluntary for many years (and expensive) , it all has a bearing on our viewpoint of new, old etc etc.
Mental arithmetic ruled supreme and log books and slide rules were things of desire. Calculators not invented.