Ceiling roses

[sunbeam37]

I want to change 2 old ceiling roses. I've done others but they were straightforward as the wires inside matched the diagram in Collins DIY book but these 2 are different. In one rose there are 4 grey cables entering it. One of the grey cables just has a red wire going from it to the live terminal. The other 3 grey cables each have a black wire going to the neutral terminal and a green one to the earth terminal. The other rose is the same except it only has 3 grey cables. I was expecting there to be live wires in all the grey cables.
How do I find out which is the mains, the switch and the loop cables?
The new roses have the terminals all in a row - 3 neutral, 3 loop and then 2 live, one for the black switch wire and one for the brown light wire.
Could anyone tell me how to wire them correctly?
Thanks for any advice.

 

[handyjack]

Pictures please.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Yes. Take pictures before you disconnect, then we can tell you easy peasey. If you just disconnect and no pic, then you'll need a day and a multimeter. Or an electrician.

 

[sunbeam37]

I haven't been able to get a decent photo of either rose as you can see. This is the 2nd rose plus a diagram of it below. There is a photo of the new rose too. The first rose is the same as the 2nd

but has a 4th grey cable with green and black wires like cables 2 and 3.

 

[AndyPRK]

From your diagram it looks easy.

Greens to the single brass terminal.

Blacks to were the blue is.
Red to where the brown is.
Middle Loop empty

 

[EFLImpudence]

Greens ???

 

[sunbeam37]

Thanks AndyPRK. Does it not matter that the loop terminals will be empty?

 

[Taylortwocities]

You don't have a live to loop.

 

[AndyPRK]

Greens ???

Sleeving that was used circa 1974 over the CPC

 

[EFLImpudence]

Yes, I know that - but at first the drawing didn't look right