Is this a party wall or not?

[Nomadic78]

Hi all,

Hopefully someone can help me. I am trying to get a party wall agreed with both of my neighbours. The neighbour on the image above has taken independent advice and believes that the zone 2 wall is a party wall, rather then zone 1. My deeds are silent on the boundary/party wall definition. However, the neighbour doesn't not want to change the boundary definition, but still have a party wall applied. I've explained that he cannot have it both ways, IE for the duration of the works the zone 2 wall is a party wall and thereafter it is a boundary. Obviously the surveyor is eager to earn the fees from my side, but doesn't want to saddle his client with the duties of supporting the walls after the works, including the foundation as a shared wall, rather than my sole responsibility.

For additional clarity, zone 1 on the upper image is more than 4 metres away. Zone 2 is within the act. Appreciate a more informed decision on whether the red zone 2 is a party wall or a boundary wall.

 

[Murdochcat]

Irrespective of the zones what are you planning to have done?

 

[stevie888]

Your question is unclear to say the least but a couple of points.

A wall is truly a party wall if it's physically shared by 2 properties but the act (at least the bit that mainly affects domestics extensions) relates to any wall belonging in part or wholly to your neighbour which is within 3m of your founds where they go deeper than existing.

You as the instigator of the works will be wholly responsible for any support works required by any walls put at risk by the works and any remedial works necessitated .

I'm surprised and frankly shocked that your PWS hasn't explained this. Is the guy qualified??

 

[Nomadic78]

Irrespective of the zones what are you planning to have done?

A 3 metre extension off the back of the existing building. It will match the width of the existing building.

 

[Nomadic78]

Your question is unclear to say the least but a couple of points.

A wall is truly a party wall if it's physically shared by 2 properties but the act (at least the bit that mainly affects domestics extensions) relates to any wall belonging in part or wholly to your neighbour which is within 3m of your founds where they go deeper than existing.

You as the instigator of the works will be wholly responsible for any support works required by any walls put at risk by the works and any remedial works necessitated .

I'm surprised and frankly shocked that your PWS hasn't explained this. Is the guy qualified??

The PWS has stated it is unclear to whether the wall marked is shared or party. What my neighbour is claiming is that the party wall should be in place for the building works. I've explained that if that wall belongs to me (which I believe) then I am solely liable for the repairs arising from the work, but it is my wall. His building is 4 metres away from the start of my new foundations, it is only if this zone 2 wall is shared that the PWA comes into play.

I've explained if the wall is a party, rather than a boundary, then he has enduring liability for repairs, including the foundation.

Bottom line, the neighbour wants a PWA in place during the works, but not have shared responsibility thereafter. My deeds are silent on the matter and it looks like I need to get a chartered land surveyor in to determine if the wall belongs to me alone or is shared.

 

[Murdochcat]

A 3 metre extension off the back of the existing building. It will match the width of the existing building.

Are you and your neighbours detached? Your sketch isn’t clear what is what

 

[Nomadic78]

No, the drawing above shows that the wall is shared up until the zone 1 marking. The wall thereafter is on my land and he has no structure attached to it. So that 4 metre walls faces off to his garden.

 

[Murdochcat]

No, the drawing above shows that the wall is shared up until the zone 1 marking. The wall thereafter is on my land and he has no structure attached to it. So that 4 metre walls faces off to his garden.

That still isn’t clear imho

Can’t you add to the sketch showing what you are adding?

 

[Nomadic78]

Is this clearer?

 

[Murdochcat]

A bit but it’s not clear where your neighbours houses are

 

[Nomadic78]

On the image above there is a wall running into the staircase, top left. That is where the end of their building ends. There is no structure on that part of the wall, it is just the garden.

 

[Nomadic78]

Maybe this gives a better idea

 

[stevie888]

It appears to me that certainly so far as the neighbour topside of you is concerned there is no need for a PWA as you are joining onto a wall which is solely your property and >3m from any walls of his. In that case you can just get on, you need no notice.

I have had this kind of situation arise where neighbours were fighting my client about her extension any way they could and PW nonsense would have added fuel to the fire, In practical terms you need an agreement to go within 3m of existing (as they are generally older and therefore shallower) but strictly it is only if you go deeper. So the last 800mm or so of the foundation was a cantilever RC beam. All very simple (I actually spoke to BC ahead of time to explain the reason and they were fine, even impressed by the neat sidestep).

We didn't serve a notice and on the day of excavation a PWS turned up shouting the odds. The builder handled him quite well, explaining that even if he measured the gap 10 more times it was still 3m before we dropped to founding depth. This guy was a fellow of the RICS but hadn't bothered to look at the drawiings, and/or didn't understand the Act.

I spoke to him the next day and suggested looking before yelling at workmen he had no business speaking to in the first place which wasn't well received and had my client received a bill I would have raised a formal complaint with RICS for unprofessional behaviour. In the event I don't know if he didn't invoice the neighbours at all or made them pay but told them they couldn't charge my client.

 

[^woody^]

A party wall must have room on either side.

The PWA may apply to building a wall near a boundary, but that won't make the wall a party wall

 

[Nomadic78]

It appears to me that certainly so far as the neighbour topside of you is concerned there is no need for a PWA as you are joining onto a wall which is solely your property and >3m from any walls of his. In that case you can just get on, you need no notice.

I have had this kind of situation arise where neighbours were fighting my client about her extension any way they could and PW nonsense would have added fuel to the fire, In practical terms you need an agreement to go within 3m of existing (as they are generally older and therefore shallower) but strictly it is only if you go deeper. So the last 800mm or so of the foundation was a cantilever RC beam. All very simple (I actually spoke to BC ahead of time to explain the reason and they were fine, even impressed by the neat sidestep).

We didn't serve a notice and on the day of excavation a PWS turned up shouting the odds. The builder handled him quite well, explaining that even if he measured the gap 10 more times it was still 3m before we dropped to founding depth. This guy was a fellow of the RICS but hadn't bothered to look at the drawiings, and/or didn't understand the Act.

I spoke to him the next day and suggested looking before yelling at workmen he had no business speaking to in the first place which wasn't well received and had my client received a bill I would have raised a formal complaint with RICS for unprofessional behaviour. In the event I don't know if he didn't invoice the neighbours at all or made them pay but told them they couldn't charge my client.

Thank you. That was aligned to my thoughts. I imagine I could proceed with the works stating that I don't believe the act applies because the wall is not a party. If the neighbour was to oppose, he would have to get the wall to be determined as a party wall.