LED tube replacement

don't have a smart phone - they're just for cabbages

I might have been of the same opinion, in the distant past, and I bought one to see how useful they are, for things other than just the basics, of making phone calls. For instance - I have to do regular home BP readings, for my GP, and hospital consultant. My BP monitor automatically bluetooths it's reading, straight across to my phone. I have all my credit and debit cards on the phone, secured via facial recognition, so I no longer need to carry any cash around.
 
I just removed the starter and bypassed the ballast by wiring live to one end and neutral to the other; sorted it in ten minutes and everything fired up fine.
 
I just removed the starter and bypassed the ballast by wiring live to one end and neutral to the other; sorted it in ten minutes and everything fired up fine.
I had a similar setup and just swapped the tubes with LED ones, bypassing the ballast like others mentioned. The whole thing lit up fine after that, no flicker. I did this for my garage first, then did something similar with wall lights in a hallway—just had to check how they were wired before messing with them. Swapping tubes isn't too tricky once you figure out the wiring layout.
 
Question for experienced LED lamp installers...when converting existing lighting to LED do you change the MCB protecting the circuit?

In theory, there is higher inrush current, but of many people I've known retro-fitting LED none have mentioned upgrading MCBs. Maybe it doesn't matter with a small number of fittings in a house, but large supermarkets with 100s of fittings are now being converted to LED. What happens MCB--wise in these cases?
 
Question for experienced LED lamp installers...when converting existing lighting to LED do you change the MCB protecting the circuit?

In theory, there is higher inrush current, but of many people I've known retro-fitting LED none have mentioned upgrading MCBs. Maybe it doesn't matter with a small number of fittings in a house, but large supermarkets with 100s of fittings are now being converted to LED. What happens MCB--wise in these cases?
The old fluorescent lamp did have an inrush, and also very voltage dependent, at one time we saw voltage optimisers used to reduce the excess power used when we got high voltage, the move from magnetic to electronic ballasts, resulted in higher lumen output, and lower current, and longer life, and also it auto adjusted for voltage variations, so the optimiser was no longer required.

The move to LED from the HF ballast fluorescent has resulted in lower lumen and lower wattage, the lumen output in many cases halved, and often this does not matter, as main reason for fluorescent was to get the spread of light rather than a high output, and also to allow for fluorescents to get dimmer with age.

The MCB is not a problem, as the load has gone down not up.
 
Question for experienced LED lamp installers...when converting existing lighting to LED do you change the MCB protecting the circuit?

In theory, there is higher inrush current, but of many people I've known retro-fitting LED none have mentioned upgrading MCBs. Maybe it doesn't matter with a small number of fittings in a house, but large supermarkets with 100s of fittings are now being converted to LED. What happens MCB--wise in these cases?
Firm i work for has removed thousands of T8 and T5 tube fittings and replaced with led fittings in retail stores, all still with existing mcbs often original since the 1980s and I don't recall any issues.
I have only ever witnessed inrush tripping mcbs with older halogen lamp transformers and metal halide control gear.
 
Question for experienced LED lamp installers...when converting existing lighting to LED do you change the MCB protecting the circuit? ...
I would say that the short answer is that virtually no-one would even consider that, let alone do it!
In theory, there is higher inrush current, but of many people I've known retro-fitting LED none have mentioned upgrading MCBs.
What is this "higher inrush current" (with LEDs) you're postulating? For a start, LED lighting uses dramatically less current than any of the historical alternatives, so all currents (both 'running' and 'at start up') will be lower with LEDs. Furthermore, whilst both fluorescent and incandescent lighting has/had (for different reasons) appreciable 'inrush current' at switch-on, there may (theoretically) be no appreciable 'inrush' current with LED lighting - it depends entirely on how they are powered.
 
It is based on a few things I have read, see the link. ...
Fair enough. It appears that the crux of what the article is saying is ....
The lamp inrush current on switching LEDs has become an area of concern in the lighting industry. ‘Inrush current’ of the LED drivers refers to the input current of short duration that flows into the LED driver, during the initial start-up, to charge the capacitors on the input side. Typically, this is a short duration current, whose amplitude is much greater than the operating or steady-state current. The inrush current is due to the EMC filter on the input and bulk capacitor on the boost circuit this is inherent to the LED technology.
For a start, it's probably the EMC filter capacitors that are most relevant to this issue, and they exist in the vast majority of all electrical/electronic equipment these days, from washing machines to computers - so the argument is by no means limited to LED lighting.
The article goes on to say ...
For a typical 150W, 0.7A LED driver, Philips Model 9137012116, used in various CREE luminaires, the inrush current is stated as 130Amp for 165 Micro Seconds. It is suggested that up to 7 -10 of these drivers be used / per 20A C curve MCB, however it will depend on the individual circuit impedance.
For a typical 220W, 1.05A LED driver, CREE Model LE098X01 used in CREE High Output Edge luminaires, the inrush current is stated as 80 Amp for 1000uS (1mS). It is suggested that up to 6 – 8 of these drivers be used /per 20A C curve MCB, however, it will depend on the individual circuit impedance.
That really reinforces your suggestion that this is only ever likely to be become an even remotely significant issue in relation to large commercial installations. 150W or 220W of LED lighting is probably more than the total of all LED lighting in a standard domestic property, and the use of 7-10 or 6-8 of such drivers (i.e. 1,050W - 1,320W) is a world far divorced from anything 'domestic'.

This is a DIY forum,hence essentially about residential installations. In relation to them, I would say that the 'inrush' current of LED lighting is trivial and probably/often appreciably less that that due to most other electrical/electronic loads in the property - so that one will very rarely have to even consider using MCBs/RCBOs other than 'B-curve' ones. Only if one has equipment with, say, unusually large motors, or things like 'welders' is one likely to have to consider C-Curve or D-Curve devices in a domestic property. Well, that's how I see it, ayway - others may disagree :-)
 
In-rush if any is down to the driver design, rather than the LED, so will vary make to make.
Quite so. With the simplest LEDs (no external driver), it's likely to be minimal but, for the larger ('commercial') drivers, it may well be more significant, primarily due to filter capacitors (just like any other electrical/electronic equipment).
 
In-rush if any is down to the driver design, rather than the LED, so will vary make to make.
Yes - I should probably have said 'LED driver' rather than simply 'LED'.

That really reinforces your suggestion that this is only ever likely to be become an even remotely significant issue in relation to large commercial installations. 150W or 220W of LED lighting is probably more than the total of all LED lighting in a standard domestic property, and the use of 7-10 or 6-8 of such drivers (i.e. 1,050W - 1,320W) is a world far divorced from anything 'domestic'.
Thanks for your answer. I was as surprised as anyone when I first heard about the high inrush of an LED (driver), and wondered if it was just another money-making scare by the manufacturers of electrical components. I still wonder if anyone, anywhere, actually implements this MCB upgrade, especially in places like Tesco , Sainsburys etc., hence my asking if anyone here has experience of it.

The data for this PIR sensor would suggest that LED drivers have higher inrush than fluorescents. You can put 1000w of incandescent lamps on it, or 500w of fluorescents- but only 250w of LED...

 
Thanks for your answer. I was as surprised as anyone when I first heard about the high inrush of an LED (driver), and wondered if it was just another money-making scare by the manufacturers of electrical components.
As I've said, it may be an issue in massive commercial installations, but probably no more of an issue than if they had countless phone chargers, modems, TVs/monitors, 'cash registers etc. etc. In all cases, it's the power supplies/drivers that could have significant inrush currents, regardless of whether they are supplying LEDs or anything else. Because of their size and multiplicity of loads, large commercial electrical installations are a very different world from domestic ones :-)
The data for this PIR sensor would suggest that LED drivers have higher inrush than fluorescents. You can put 1000w of incandescent lamps on it, or 500w of fluorescents- but only 250w of LED...
Whatever is behind those figures (and whether they make any sense!), I find it very hard to believe that it is anything to do with 'inrush current'.

The inrush current with an incandescent lamp/bulb is pretty high - I think typically 10-20 times the running current. Furthermore, unlike the inrushes (usually due to capacitors) mentioned in your previous article in relation to LED drivers, which are very short-lived (microseconds), the 'inrush' current with an incandescent lasts appreciably longer, since the current only falls to its 'running' level once the filament has heated up to its full operating temperature.
 

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