Is it acceptable to connect a radial to a spur via a 13A plug?

[JohnW2]

I pointed out that EV connectors are not shuttered and a resident expert defended them as interlocked

That is true, but I suspect that the next amendment to, or edition of, BS7671 may well 'catch up' by explicitly adding these things to the existing list of 'exclusions'.

Mind you, I have to wonder why people don't seem to get excited about IEC connectors which, when used in some ways, have the 'fixed' part as the female one ('socket') serving as an 'output'.

I'm firmly of the opinion that anything 'fitted', regardless of the way it obtains power is or should be classed as part of the installation ....

You're attempting to apply common sense, but I'd suggest that it is not at all easy to do so in a manner which is at the same time 'comprehensive enough',consistent and also free of potential 'loopholes'.

... and fitting any sort of 'main socket' would be pointless, unless it's used for a specific reason such as generator inlet etc.

Again, you are attempting to apply common sense, and it's far from straightforward ....

I think that most of us would probably agree that none of the things we normally plug into 'mains sockets' (kitchen appliances, TVs, IT equipment, vacuum cleaners, hair dryers, tools etc. etc.), including their supply cables and plugs, count as parts of the electrical installation.

However, conversely we run into the issue highlighted by this thread. If a string of wall-mounted sockets are supplied, as a 'fused spur' from some circuit, then I think that many, maybe most, of us would, per what you imply (and what App Doc P says), always be inclined to say that those sockets were 'part of the installation', even if that 'spur' was supplied by a BS1363 plug/socket.

However, I don't see that anyone could/would describe an N-way 'extension lead' which plugged into a 13A socket as being, per se, 'part of the installation', and I suspect that many (most?) would say that that remains the case even if the socket outlets at the end of the extension lead are 'attached' to a wall/whatever.. As has happened in this thread, someone is therefore bound to point out that the two situations are electrically identical, rendering it difficult to produce a consistent 'rule' regarding what is. or is not, 'part of the installation' in these situations.

 

[robinbanks]

A four way, 2m extension lead bar (like you’d buy on Amazon for a tenner) is screwed to a wall (in such a way that the screw would have to be removed to take it away) and plugged into a regular socket

A plug with some t&e running to a double socket screwed to a plastic back box, with more t&e running to another double socket and back box, and plugged into a regular socket, but the whole thing is just loose on a bench, not fixed to anything, and could be unplugged and taken away with no visible evidence it had ever been there

Which of these, if any, would we say is “part of the installation”?

Interested to know opinions on whether it’s “what the thing is” vs “how it is incorporated” - whether one, both or neither of these things has an effect

 

[ebee]

In our Wiring Regs, in our everyday lives too, a lot of questions are not always yes everytime or no everytime ut more of a sometimes it depends sort of answer, 50 shades of greyRule/regulationscan notcover everything every time in every single instance.
And of course you ask a few different people the same question and you a few different answers.

Try to use some common sense (or uncommon sensense) and even with the best honest intent by all parties you will still get those differing points of view.

Personally I would side with the idea of the set up`s intended use whether that be permanent or just temporary therefore the fact that there is a plug involved somewhere does not reclassify as something is not fixed wiring, we might think of OK then what about an appliance then? and even then we might wander in the the other classification some times.

It is a no win scenario at best.

 

[JohnW2]

A four way, 2m extension lead bar (like you’d buy on Amazon for a tenner) is screwed to a wall (in such a way that the screw would have to be removed to take it away) and plugged into a regular socket
A plug with some t&e running to a double socket screwed to a plastic back box, with more t&e running to another double socket and back box, and plugged into a regular socket, but the whole thing is just loose on a bench, not fixed to anything, and could be unplugged and taken away with no visible evidence it had ever been there
Which of these, if any, would we say is “part of the installation”?
Interested to know opinions on whether it’s “what the thing is” vs “how it is incorporated” - whether one, both or neither of these things has an effect

Quite so!

As I've been saying, attempts to apply common sense to this situation are likely to fail, and/or result in inconsistencies, and the same goes for attempts at 'rules' to define what is, and is not, 'part of the electrical installation'.

Whilst I can describe that problem, I have to say that I cannot think of any 'solution' which would seem (to me) to be both sensible and consistent. As I'm sure you intended, what you have written/asked above illustrates the problem well!

Less often discussed is that this issue/problem is 'bidirectional'. There are plenty of things (e.g. hair dryers, kitchen/utility appliances, workshop tools etc.) which are usually 'plugged in', but are sometime 'hard-wired' - and its silly to suggest that whether or not they are 'part of the installation' can change according to the method of connection.

There could, in theory, be a 'solution', but it's not going to happen. If all the rules/regulations/Standards applying to electrical installations and things powered from them were all combined into one, then there would be no need for an (essentially arbitrary) distinction between what was,and was not, 'part of the installation'.

In the meantime,the scope for arguments and differing opinions will presumably persist

 

[JohnW2]

... And of course you ask a few different people the same question and you a few different answers. ... Try to use some common sense (or uncommon sensense) and even with the best honest intent by all parties you will still get those differing points of view. ...
It is a no win scenario at best.

Quite so -as I've just written!

 

[Ragnar_AT]

The quote on the previous page explicitly mentions BS EN 60309-2 and one could most certainly supply an entire house from a blue 63 or 100 A socket.

 

[JohnW2]

The quote on the previous page explicitly mentions BS EN 60309-2 and one could most certainly supply an entire house from a blue 63 or 100 A socket.

No.

If you read the quote, 553.1.5 indicates three very specific situations in which a plug/socket which does NOT comply with BS1363, BS546 or BS EN 60309-2 may be used. There are no mentions of plugs/sockets which DO comply with EN 60309-2.

... and none of this alters the fact that 553.1.201 requires that all sockets in a domestic ('household') environment be shuttered.

 

[Ragnar_AT]

I read that as „sockets that do comply with the listed standards may be used“ although you‘re definitely right that 553.1.201 explicitly mandates shuttered sockets.