Plug in balcony solar UK , just a Lidl question

[JohnW2]

Only that there was a tender won last October by Arceio, "The objective of this study is to assess whether plug-in solar photovoltaic (PV) connected to certified inverters can be safely deployed in the UK without socket or building wiring modifications. The study will assess technical, regulatory, and practical feasibility, and make clear, evidence-based recommendations for plug-in solar PV in the UK."
On their website it looks like they have already completed the study and reported to the Government (it is on their success stories page).

Thanks. I got as far as all that but had obviously been hoping that it might lead to some information about what was actually being proposed (or, at least, being considered) - but all there seems to be is, as you say, information that 'something has been going on'.

The Government are obviously pushing ahead with it, presumably based on the study outcome which must have been positive.

Maybe - but it would be nice if there were more information available to us about such things!

Speculation, but with possible suppliers and utility companies reporting changes should happen in the summer then I think it's fairly safe to presume it's all systems go.

Again, I would go no further than saying "maybe"

Subject to DIYnot's electrical forum sign off of course,

I suspect that the list of 'interested parties' (or 'parties with something to say') would extend well beyond the borders of DIYnot

We seem to be simply in a 'wait and see' situation, with little other than hints and hopes even about the timescale of that waiting. I'm definitely not 'holding my breath'!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ebee]

It has not been thought out properly I think.
As others have said the problems need ironing out.
To my mind if it is allowed only if manufactured to a certain standard and/or to a certain method of regulation.
I`m reminded of my little saying "Never ever ever ever buy from Fleabay".
That does not really mean never buy from it or similar, in reality. No doubt there are some good things on there and with some others similar.
It is purely a reminder that since all this thanks to "Tinternet" we have more comeption which can drive prices down, as buyers we probably all in favour of that (as sellers it probably makes things dammned harder).

One result is that we have many more chances of people selling stuff who 1/ just dont know what they are selling, 2/ dont care what they are selling, 3/ are completely oblivious to their legal obligations.

Trading Standards used to be more "on the ball" in preventing such things, indeed in the past I have cotacted them for help and advice as both a public person seeking help and as a trader (supply and installing goods) and with both of my hats on they have been extremely helpful.
All that has gone, nowadays you have to contact Cit Advice and they in turn might alert the TSO to some stuff, both orginisations are overloaded and underfunded.
What we have is many times more folk selling stuff than ever and a lot of it is the equivalent of unregulated in practice.

My worry is that if all decent UK manufactures and mainstream sellers get their house in order then we still run a massive risk that many others come in from all corners of the globe to many different standards and instruction (if any) in double dutch. and about selling things sold by loads of people actually selling us stuff who are simply unaware or ruthless or both about selling things.

David Milliband may well have had the best intentions in the world about plug in solar but without the intervention of the whole of parliament some of those who actually do bother to do the checks and balances and slow things up no end yet gives us a far better chance of avoiding the nature of unintended consequences sometimes.

Rishi Sunak faced that kind dilema with Covid, he knew there would be many mistakes with furlough he knew there would be massive fraud as well but he balanced that all up as the better option for speed and relying upon our brilliant foot soldiers in the NHS and the volunteers. He avoided the tradegy of Italy (and others) at a massive cost for all of us but the options were limited and time was of the essence

 

[ericmark]

If it's not talking about equipment with 13A BS1363 plugs

Thanks to @denso13 we now know "without socket or building wiring modifications" so would mean use of the BS 1363.

But the result could be simply no it can't be safely deployed, or since the EV socket already exists could be yes an EV socket can be used for solar.

A quick look at the G98 it seems it asks if the device is on the register of approved units and what its output is, and if the installer is approved. But does not ask anything about the internal wiring in the home, so still down to person fitting it to ensure correct RCD etc is fitted.

I personally feel if the G98 is required, it is not plug and play, the problem with most instructions are they are filled with loads of information which is not required. I bought a box yesterday to hold gardening tools, 13 pages of instructions, three languages, but in real terms used the 6 pictures of how to assemble, and so many instructions are like that, we have been programmed not to read instructions. It looks like a seat, but reading the instructions it says do not sit on it. The previous one from same outlet (Lidi) I have sat on it many times.

So we have been over time weaned off reading instructions, with instructions like "Keep children away from the product." come on, it's a plastic box, once ignored with one product (they did not even bother calling it a garden storage box) it will be ignored with the rest. Three languages, sold in Wales, and none of the languages were Welsh. OK pictures were enough, but that's my point, we have over time been programmed not to read instructions.

So plug and play should be just that, we simply plug it in, and that's not safe.

 

[ebee]

Well for years I have asked folks "what did your instructions say?" and quite often the reply is "Oh I never read them" I do not say what I think otherwise I would say "You Pratt!" LOL but lots of folks have a habit of not reading them! the makers put instructions in but folks dont read em.

Two of my favourites being smoke detectors etc too near to a void air corner or not removing transit bolts from washing machines . Why oh why oh why?? I do not know, are they just deliberately being thick?

Read the Ferlipping instructions!

 

[mikehammer69]

It does pay to read them in general

 

[ericmark]

Yes, I made up the box, then sat down and read the instructions. But in the living room, not in the general.

But I got a 20 volt drill, which was sold without battery or battery charger, and the instructions included fitting a plug.

Yes some instructions after wading through them, give important information, I know one boiler manufacturer does say it needs a type A RCD, hidden away in a 70-page document. Basically in the small print.

It is clear how important the manufacturer feels instructions are, when you find so many items sold in Wales with only English instructions. Even when the law is all laws must be bilingual to be valid in Wales, there are still laws which refer to BS 7671 which is only published in English making the law void.

So if instructions also in Welsh, clearly they are important, if only in English for a product sold in Wales, then clearly not important.

 

[mikehammer69]

Any instructions to do with rcds are very vague ime

 

[denso13]

Even when the law is all laws must be bilingual to be valid in Wales

Is that not for laws passed in the Senedd though?

 

[ericmark]

Any instructions to do with rcds are very vague ime

Yes, we have talked about that.

Is that not for laws passed in the Senedd though?

Possibly, but my point is, if not written in Welsh as well, then clearly not important to read it, for items sold in Wales.

 

[denso13]

Possibly, but my point is, if not written in Welsh as well, then clearly not important to read it, for items sold in Wales.

That's a big leap.

I could say the same about Scots Gaelic.

 

[ericmark]

I could say the same about Scots Gaelic.

Yes, of course.

 

[JohnW2]

It has not been thought out properly I think. .... As others have said the problems need ironing out. .... To my mind if it is allowed only if manufactured to a certain standard and/or to a certain method of regulation.

Indeed. However, although we face some criticism for doing so before we know what is being considered/proposed, I would say that we have largely been attempting to anticipate those proposals (i.e.guess/speculate) by discussing how the use of plug-in inverters could be rendered 'acceptable' if they really were "plug-in" - i.e. supplied with a fitted BS1363 plug (and hence 'portable') - and, in relation to the potential 'risk' to unidirectional RCDs (when the Test Button is pressed), the answer would appear to be "no" (i.e. there would be no way of avoiding that 'risk') - which could well mean that the idea would not be regarded as 'acceptable'.

The moment one moved away from BS1363 plugs, one would have gone a very long way to reverting from 'plug-in' to 'installed'.

... My worry is that if all decent UK manufactures and mainstream sellers get their house in order then we still run a massive risk that many others come in from all corners of the globe to many different standards and instruction (if any) in double dutch. and about selling things sold by loads of people actually selling us stuff who are simply unaware or ruthless or both about selling things.

That's always the worry (a lot more widely than just in relation to the specific issue we're discussing). However, since it's the 'bureaucracy' (rules/regs/laws etc.) that we are discussing, this is a bit different, since we already have plenty of regulations, and legislation which 'prevent' the import into the UK, or sale in the UK, of products which don't satisfy appropriate rules/regs/Standards/legislation. The issue is therefore the lack of adequate policing/enforcement of existing 'powers'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

View attachment 415602
Thanks to @denso13 we now know "without socket or building wiring modifications" so would mean use of the BS 1363. ... But the result could be simply no it can't be safely deployed ...

I hadn't read this fully before I posted my most recent post - but, yes, that is exactly what I have just written.

I personally feel if the G98 is required, it is not plug and play ....

I would be inclined to agree with that, and it's not simply semantic'. If these things really do come to be regarded (and sold) as 'plug-in inverters' then to my mind that would mean that, provided they satisfy whatever standards/regulations come to apply to them, the general public will be able to simply buy them and plug them in to their existing electrical installation, without any other requirements/'bureaucracy' - i.e. just the same as with any other item of ('plug-in') electrical equipment.

 

[JohnW2]

Well for years I have asked folks "what did your instructions say?" and quite often the reply is "Oh I never read them" ....
Read the Ferlipping instructions!

It does pay to read them in general

That's all very well, but I don't think it would help much is the situation we are discussing ...

... quite apart from the fact that it would be a bit rich if a buyer did not see this until after he/she had bought to product, an instruction saying something like "this product must not be plugged into a socket which is protected by a unidirectional RCD" would be totally meaningless to almost all purchasers, and even those (like some electricians) who understood it would very probably be unable to be certain about the nature of the RCDs protecting a particular circuit ... and that gets even worse if, as per eric's suggestion, people move the devices around from property to property!

 

[mikehammer69]

https://electrical.theiet.org/wirin...-march-2024/bidirectional-protective-devices/

“The concern highlighted by BEAMA is that a voltage present on the outgoing terminals of the protective device, either due to the device operating in the event of an earth fault or by use of the functional test button, could cause irreparable damage.”

That’s where i read about 2 issues with unidirectional rcds ,whether true or not