At Risk or NCS?

kirkgas · 5 Jul 2012

GuessMan said:
So the debate begins....

AR for no Benchmark
AR for incorrect clearances around an appliance (for servicing)
AR no screws in short horizontal flue passing through a wall cemented both sides.

All three above are real at risk situations, how many would you turn off? The instructions I have ALWAYS worked to are, "with the consent of the responsible person the appliance should be switched off". I always put stickers on and get the warning notice signed "switch off refused".

Our registration is a proof of qualification and competence, not a Gestapo badge. If you contact gassafe, they will always say it's your call, some use no common sense. I carry out a risk assessment and act accordingly. With a WP of 17mb and max burner pressure of 11.8mb with a non steamer without a zero governor gas valve, there would be no risk. The RGI was working on the basis of max 1mb drop to the appliance - this would have to be shown by a test nipple downstream on any additional restriction such as a gas cock or the gas valve itself.

Edit What was the working pressure at the meter? Standing gas pressure proves nothing except that pressure is there?

for lack of service access to be AR there would need to be a potential danger, ie FGA reading too high or something

Noraslad · 5 Jul 2012

fullyabsorbent said:
If the engineer made a mistake i'd like to ask him for a refund. He is trading like a reputable company with all the bells and whistles and he was so supremely sure that he was making the right decisions that it just didn't feel right.

What makes you think the guy made a mistake?
In his opinion the appliance/installation was 'At Risk' He may have saved your life.

What people are saying is he didn't follow the protocol in full.

For you to continue to use the appliance would be at your own responsibility and may be in breach of the law.

Think carefully about that, there have been cases where the user or responsible person have turned back on a fully documented 'At Risk' appliance and people have died.

This Consumer Information gives guidance but doesn't go into the detail that the registered guy can give you.

shambolic · 5 Jul 2012

I have always took it that a fixed rate appliance eg 17mbar with an inlet pressure less than the required burner pressure at inlet is At Risk.
On a condensing boiler with one to one Governer it will work to lower pressures.
In our instructions it states that as low as 16 mbar at inlet is ok, PROVIDED other appliances are not effected.

mysteryman · 5 Jul 2012

petit_pablo";p="2445564 said:
"Most water heaters are fixed rate appliances."

Are you sure about that?

onlyfitidealboilers · 5 Jul 2012

fullyabsorbent said:
I recently had a problem with my water heater. After repairing it, and unrelated to the fault, the gas engineer claimed that the pipework was undersized he said the water heater was "AT RISK" and he isolated it at the inlet valve. His report claims "The burner pressure on water heater is 11.8mb. Standing pressure = 23mb, Working pressure taken at water
heater whilst hob on = 17mb. (pipework is undersized!) Water Heater= "AT RISK" isolated at inlet valve"

I have read elsewhere that undersized pipe work should be classed as "Not to Current Standards"

"... anything which does not comply with the gas regulations but is neither ID nor AR. This is called "Not to Current Standard" (NCS).

"A good example could be when a gas pipe feeding an appliance is too small. The pressure drop along the pipe means the inlet pressure to the appliance is too low, so the appliance burns less gas than it is designed to burn (the flames are a bit smaller). This is clearly not ID, nor is it even AR, but it isn't right. Provided the appliance is running safely there is no risk, so it is simply classed as "Not to Current Standards" (NCS)."

Which one is right?

what happens if when the boiler fires up it affects the flame on the hob during peak time That's ID pal. Put ya hand in your pocket an get it done correctly. Don't forget HE is the pro not YOU do you question a doctor too!!

fullyabsorbent · 5 Jul 2012

of course i question a doctor too. I always get a second opinion on important matters

sherbert · 5 Jul 2012

fullyabsorbent said:
of course i question a doctor too. I always get a second opinion on important matters

Feck me ............... so you go on DIYdoctor as well then if something is wrong with your health!!

Look the bottom line is the guy on site has deemed it AR ... most prob the gas hob flame was dropping when the water heater fired up = AR

Get somebody else around thats gas safe and pay them if you feel the guy is wrong ............ for what its worth I will never go against somebody thats ID or AR an appliance as the conditions could have changed and the prob could be there another day .........

I dont feel that we should have AR it should either be safe and fitted as per MI or it should be deemed unsafe and isolated

Black or white with no grey areas

MeterMonkey · 5 Jul 2012

kirkgas said:
NEVER isolate a pilot on an AR appliance nless you do a TT to confirm the FSD has shut, you are making more work for yourself, simply say to the customer " i need to discuss aproblem with this appliance, before i do, is it ok if i turn it off, i dont want to burn your gas with the cost of it these days" (thats usually enough to be given permission, tell them what the prob is and leave, as you have asked for and got permission to turn it off, leave them a notice and you are legally fully covered

I only change meters. Do visual check before touching the meter, identifying problems (if any) as I go.

On all appliances with a manual pilot light, I always inform the customer of the potential problems with relighting, especially if the thermocouple pipe is a looking a bit old. If im still ok to carry on, then I go to meter and start with a TT and finish with a TT.

Agile · 5 Jul 2012

fullyabsorbent said:
If the engineer made a mistake i'd like to ask him for a refund. He is trading like a reputable company with all the bells and whistles and he was so supremely sure that he was making the right decisions that it just didn't feel right.

He was called to inspect the installation!

He came and did that and even if he may not have come the the correct conclusion about how to deal with the unsafe situation he still deserves to be paid.

I agree with his decision except that he should not have turned it off without your permission.

Tony Glazier

Phill Peck · 5 Jul 2012

It doesn't matter if it's AR or NCS.
You can still use it if u want. It's just not reccomended and aslong as you have signed the paperwork it is your problem and your risk/ your families risk

Either way the solution is to have the pipework re-routed/re-sized

GasBod · 5 Jul 2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=-Zbt_R_d_V4

Boilerman2 · 6 Jul 2012

I don't see the big deal about simply turning off an appliance with or without permission - now capping one off is a diffrent matter

It is a simple fact that lighting up and putting into service a gas appliance that is connected to a gas supply does not come under the scope of GS&UR, it is a task for the end user, HOWEVER if an AR warning notice exists, the ends user is taking sole responsibillity, wgich in my opinion is better than if the RGI had left it burning! I don't see the big deal

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At Risk or NCS?

mysteryman

Phill Peck

GasBod

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