Faulty Economy 7 timer

Ironically, they just sent me an email promoting their smart meters!? ... Then, when I do some searching around their site I find: ...
That doesn't really make an awful lot of sense. They may not be currently offering to switch people from a single-rate to a 2-rate meter, but if someone already has a 2-rate meter (or something associated with it, like your timer) which hass gone wrong, they clearly need to do something about it! Are they perhaps trying to say that all they can do is change you to a single rate meter (for £120?!!!) and tariff, which would clearly not be in your interest, just because their equipment is broken?!

Kind Regards, John
 
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I'm afraid that I still don't really understand. If the 'switched output' line from the timer to the meter is 'a neutral', what potentials are it at in the timer's 'on' and 'off' states respectively?
I have just realised what you were getting at - so that is probably NOT how they operate.

Switching neutral is acceptable within a device but not for one device operating another.
 
I have just realised what you were getting at - so that is probably NOT how they operate. Switching neutral is acceptable within a device but not for one device operating another.
Indeed - and, as I said, issues such as you mentioned (the electromagnetic mechanistics within the meter, and the supplier's preference for it to fail in the 'high cost' state) remain the same whether one switches the neutral or the line - since we're just talking about sending current through, or not sending current through, an electromagnet.

Kind Regards, John
 
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As I've implied, I think it is all really just a 'play on words' - my only issue (which initially confused me) being the description of the signal line as 'a neutral'.

If you don't believe me, if you disconnected that 'neutral' from the timeswitch and held it, whilst touching earth with your other hand, then I think you would get a 'shocking' indication of what we are talking about :) ...

... since what we are presumably talking about is a signal wire which is, when not connected to anything (at the timeswitch end), at close to L potential (being connected to one side of a solenoid coil in the meter, the other side of which is connected to L) but which (obviously) falls to N potential if/when it is connected to neutral, thereby completing the circuit and activating the solenoid.

Kind Regards, John
 
I agree, but it is the neutral that is switched,used to see it a lot on Italian machines, don't know why it was done that way
 
I agree, but it is the neutral that is switched ....
Yes, so it seems. As I said, it was only the words that confused/concerned me - just as one would not describe a 'switched-live' as "a live/line', one would not expect a switched neutral to be called "a neutral".
... used to see it a lot on Italian machines, don't know why it was done that way
I suppose there must have be some reason, at least in the minds of those who did it - but on the face of it I can see no reason why it could not have been done 'the other' ('safer') way!

Kind Regards, John
 
I dont suppose it was that unsafe, as only authorised personnel should be messing with metering, lets face it the same outfits used to live joint in holes full of water
 
I dont suppose it was that unsafe, as only authorised personnel should be messing with metering, lets face it the same outfits used to live joint in holes full of water
Well, yes, but there still has to be some good reason not to use the 'safer' method?

After all, I presume that you don't mean to imply that 'authorised personnel' are totally immune from being silly, making mistakes or suffering electric shocks, are you?

Kind Regards, John
 
Now Bulb seem to have accepted that they are responsible for the timer and meter, but they still aren't going to do anything:

I've run this by the metering team here who have confirmed that we can't fix timeswitches, we can only replace it alongside the meter. They have recommended that this would have to be a 5 terminal smart meter which are currently in development.

As I mentioned, we can pursue the back billing option when a replacement is put in.


It turns out there is some kind of industry-wide issue here:

Are Economy 7 smart meters not available?
Economy 7 meters record day and night consumption separately. Consumers will pay a cheaper rate for night-time consumption and a higher rate for day-time consumption.

In general, Economy 7 Smart Meters are available to consumers. But some Economy 7 meters are linked to heating systems, with storage radiators or boilers only able to charge overnight. The meters that support such a set up are known as 5-terminal Economy 7 meters.

Energy suppliers should now be replacing traditional meters with second-generation smart meters. But no manufacturer is currently producing second-generation 5-terminal Economy 7 meters. The industry is working on a solution to this but lack of availability may mean consumers with 5-terminal Economy 7 meters are not able to receive a smart meter at present. As the deadline to provide a working smart meter has not passed, there is no obligation for supplies to provide 5-terminal Economy 7 meters at this time.

There is also a shortage of traditional 5-terminal Economy 7 meters. If such a meter becomes faulty, there may be a challenge for a supplier in sourcing a working meter. However, as consumers can lose their heat and/or hot water because of a fault, we consider it to the supplier’s responsibility to find a replacement meter as soon as possible.

https://www.ombudsman-services.org/faqs/energy-sector-faqs#are-economy-7-smart-meters-not-available

Note the last sentence!

Frankly I couldn't care less whether I have a smart meter or not, I just want them to sort it out. If the timer fails completely we could have no heating at all.
 
Now Bulb seem to have accepted that they are responsible for the timer and meter, but they still aren't going to do anything: .... It turns out there is some kind of industry-wide issue here: ...

I'm still a bit confused. As I said before, there is no shortage of smart meters which can cope with (metering-wise) an E7 tariff (and hundreds of other possible tariffs), since that's what smart meters do.

As I said before, the issue is that you have switching of your storage heaters happening within your meter - and that requires a "5-terminal meter", and it is those that have a current shortage (quite possibly because not many people use them).

They could easily replace what you have with a smart (or non-smart) meter which satisfactorily metered per the E7 tariff for the whole of your installation (but which didn't provide a switched supply for your heaters) - you would then have to get your own timeswitch(es) installed to switch the storage heaters on and off at the appropriate times.

Kind Regards, John
 
They could easily replace what you have with a smart (or non-smart) meter which satisfactorily metered per the E7 tariff for the whole of your installation (but which didn't provide a switched supply for your heaters) - you would then have to get your own timeswitch(es) installed to switch the storage heaters on and off at the appropriate times.

I am definitely not doing that. I currently see how the timer goes haywire, and I've seen it be out of synch previously (ie coming on at 7am rather than going off at 7am). If I put my own timers in they could potentially be out of synch with the E7 low rate, and I'd be paying the higher rate. And I'd have the expense of installing and maintaining the timers.
 
Well, yes, but there still has to be some good reason not to use the 'safer' method?

After all, I presume that you don't mean to imply that 'authorised personnel' are totally immune from being silly, making mistakes or suffering electric shocks, are you?

Kind Regards, John

I never did :eek:
 

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