fire door closer!

bought a Securit fire door closer (class 3 )
Instructions are dreadful and maybe it's C...p.

We went for (position 1) force 2/3 because we wanted it to open more than 120 deg.
The template gives the location of the screws for fixing the body, ie LH screws 65mm in from the hinge edge of the door-all good
Now for the positioning of the foot for the adjustable arm fixing, it gives a measurement of 145mm from the LH screw IF YOU USE POSITION 2 and only shows a slight difference in scre position for strong or weak
question 1- we used position 1, so should the shoe have been fixed 145mm from LH screw on the body, or should we just follow the template?(which is what we did)

the spindle for the main arm is square, but the hole in the main arm is hex shaped and doesn't seem to go onto the spindle easily
question 2- is there a particular way to get it on and should it go right down over the spindle ?

the instructions don't specifically mention the words "pre loading"(they do on the instructions for parallel fixing), but seem to suggest to separate the 2 arms, place the main arm onto the spindle so it's at 90 deg to the door and put the nut on to tighten it
Then fix the adjustable arm to the shoe and , keeping it at 90 deg to the door, pull the main arm around to meet the adjustable arm.
question 3 Would this pre-load the opener?

the opener isn't closing the door right up .Appreciate it might be the hinges or another problem, but regarding the closer, we're adjusting the 1 and 2 (closing speed and latching speed) adjustments, but it doesn't seem to making much difference.The door closes fine without the closer and locks and latchs fine.
It doesn't have a power adjustment.

question 4- would we have been better to use Position 2 ie max opening 120 deg'?

whatsthenews said:

the opener isn't closing the door right up .Appreciate it might be the hinges or another problem, but regarding the closer, we're adjusting the 1 and 2 (closing speed and latching speed) adjustments, but it doesn't seem to making much difference.The door closes fine without the closer and locks and latchs fine.
It doesn't have a power adjustment.

Click to expand...

If the closer isn't closing the door fully but the door will close normally when the closer is reduced then the problem is the close, not the hinges, so forget about that.

All the closers I have ever installed seem to have had a screw adjustment on one if the arms which allow you to adjust the door closed position by screwing the arm in or out (what you call a pre-tensioner). Does your closer not have this? This needs to be sorted out before setting the closing and latching speeds. Similarly the arms should describe a very shallow "figure 4" when they are installed with the arm which runs from the architrave/frame being perpendicular to the door and further away from the hinges than the other door and the other arm being at about 80° to the face of the door.

Once you have that all set up you can play with the latching and closing speeds, beating in mind that adjusting one will affect the rate of the other, so you end up doing a bit of a back and forth dance to get things right.

Finally, as this is a fire door, what about intumescent/brush strips? When these are installed they slow down and can stop the latching. Equally they tend to bed in over a month or so at which point the closing speeds will need adjusting again

JobAndKnock said:

All the closers I have ever installed seem to have had a screw adjustment on one if the arms which allow you to adjust the door closed position by screwing the arm in or out (what you call a pre-tensioner).

Click to expand...

Thanks JobandKnock! I hoped you might be around!
The arm that comes from the frame is adjustable by screwing it in or out-yes, so that's pre tensioning the closer then. Done that

JobAndKnock said:

Similarly the arms should describe a very shallow "figure 4" when they are installed with the arm which runs from the architrave/frame being perpendicular to the door and further away from the hinges than the other door and the other arm being at about 80° to the face of the door.

Click to expand...

Yes, we have that

JobAndKnock said:

so you end up doing a bit of a back and forth dance to get things right.

Click to expand...

that's an understatement!

I am so sick of this door and closer
It closes, latches and locks fine with all the intumescent strips/brushes on with no closer

We had to swap the whole closer as my darling husband adjusted one of the adjusters too much and all the faffing oil drained out. I wouldn't care but after we'd paid more attention to the adjustable arm being exactly perpendicular to the door, it was actually latching but going far too fast. It's supposed to take about 6 seconds isn't it? I don't want it too fast anyway, as there's a step up into the utility and I have balance problems and don't want it clipping my heels.
.
The new one (a different make) has the position of the shoe much closer to the body and you can feel it's under a lot more tension, but it won't latch the door. It stops when the latch reaches the latch keep
We'll make some adjustments (don't know what) tomorrow and see if we can fettle it. Then I'll be taking the bloody thing off until the bloke comes to inspect it

If it's any help I always find doing a one off when I haven't installed a fire door closer for a while is a bit of a faff. When you are going round a job fitting 20 or 30 of them, even different sizes on different doors, you get pretty good at adjusting them quickly after the first couple. The "trick" is not to make the adjustments in steps which are too big.

As I said I generally sort out the closing speed first (regardless of whether or not the door shuts fully) before sorting out the latching settings.

Also be aware that if your door gapping is all to pot (fire doors require a gap round 3 sides of 2 to 4mm - we check with a taper gauge and visually) it may make it impossible to latch. Also worth checking the intumescent to ensure that it is sitting down in the grooves - paint and/or lacquer can make the groove shallower and will possibly require scraping out (and is partly why I have Stanley chisels in 10, 15 and 20mm widths in my tool kit to scrape out intumescent grooves). Failing that I have actually seen people "shave" the cold smoke seal down a bit with a disposable razor to get a recalcitrant door to shut correctly, but it is hardly an approved technique!

JobAndKnock said:

If it's any help I always find doing a one off when I haven't installed a fire door closer for a while is a bit of a faff. When you are going round a job fitting 20 or 30 of them, even different sizes on different doors, you get pretty good at adjusting them quickly after the first couple. The "trick" is not to make the adjustments in steps which are too big.

As I said I generally sort out the closing speed first (regardless of whether or not the door shuts fully) before sorting out the latching settings.

Also be aware that if your door gapping is all to pot (fire doors require a gap round 3 sides of 2 to 4mm - we check with a taper gauge and visually) it may make it impossible to latch. Also worth checking the intumescent to ensure that it is sitting down in the grooves - paint and/or lacquer can make the groove shallower and will possibly require scraping out (and is partly why I have Stanley chisels in 10, 15 and 20mm widths in my tool kit to scrape out intumescent grooves). Failing that I have actually seen people "shave" the cold smoke seal down a bit with a disposable razor to get a recalcitrant door to shut correctly, but it is hardly an approved technique!

Click to expand...

Cheers. It was latching, but then we remembered we still had to put the seal back on the frame above the lock/latch. I think maybe the gap is slightly too small in that top corner. Gap should be 2-4mm between the edge of the door and the frame I assume, not between the door and the brushes?
Did wonder about giving it a quick shave.
We're heading out there soon

The gap between the door and the frame/casing needs to be 2 to 4mm to meet the regs. Ideally you aim for 3mm as any less will make the door tight in the opening and the closer may have difficulty overcoming the resistance of the brush strip. Incidentally, because these brush strips flatten over time it is normally necessary to adjust the latching speed on the closer after some use to avoid the door slamming

JobAndKnock said:

The gap between the door and the frame/casing needs to be 2 to 4mm to meet the regs. Ideally you aim for 3mm as any less will make the door tight in the opening and the closer may have difficulty overcoming the resistance of the brush strip. Incidentally, becsusecthese brush strips flatten over time it is normally necessary to adjust the latching speed on the closer after some use to avoid the door slamming

Click to expand...

We've only got 2mm at the top so maybe shave a little off. Not touched the top od the door so far.

Yes. Trim the top of the door by 1mm. Consider putting a 1 or 2mm chamfer on the top edge of the door on the frame side as well (with a sharp block plane) as this will make the closing action a tad smoother and is barely noticeable when done neatly

Went out to have another fight with it and it's latching now. It's a bit fast, but not adjusting it ATM. Thanks for your help