New wiring alongside underfloor heating

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Hi guys

I'm doing a new rewire so there will be lots of new electrical cable under the floor.
However I'm also installing wet underfloor heating in the whole house.
How do I isolate one from the other.
I might have read that regs require a 300mm distance from hot pipes but I can't be sure.

Any advice appreciated.
CF
 
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Install round conduit either steel or plastic and use singles rather than T&E
no separation distance required, however will need derating due to the higher than normal temperature.
 
Install round conduit either steel or plastic and use singles rather than T&E
no separation distance required, however will need derating due to the higher than normal temperature.

Under floor heating normally limited to around 27°C so one can walk on it so not that hot really.
Thanks guys, alternate viewpoints are useful.
Is this regs or just advice?
If it is the latter, what is the rationale please?

I'm struggling to find really clear advice on this topic.

I appreciate that the idea is to run the UFH as low temp as possible eg. At 27c, but I'm just thinking about when cold weather demands higher temperatures, also when running legionnaires cycle, which could be as hot at 50c.

If cables are being derated, what are they to be derated to?

Thanks again.
 
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The floor temperature is dependent on finish, can't remember what finish is what off hand. With inhibitor in the water legionnaires should not be a problem, and yes with the under floor heating at mothers house it was not warm enough to maintain the temperature on its own and we used a towel rail as well.

I know the idea is with under floor heating the heat pump does not have to work as hard so is more economical to run, however this means you can't also heat domestic hot water at the same time, with solar panels maybe no need for DHW from heat pump?

One has to look at the home as a whole, one can't look at it in isolation. Much depends on heat loss and life style, either heat loss needs to be very low, also of course heat gain, sun through the windows added to a floor still warm can mean a very hot room, as the reaction time of under floor heating is very slow.

So we have two extremes, the fan assisted radiators is very fast reheating a room, so the room can be allowed to cool when not in use, and it can pump out a lot of heat with a small unit, and the unit can be used both to heat and cool, however it needs powering all day, there is no heat storage. The under floor heating is slow to recover, if left to cool down, so does not lend itself to geofencing, But the home retains the heat, so one may be able to set it higher over night so use off peak power.

Personally when I go to bed I want it cool, so under floor heating would not suit me, but can see how it would work well in an old peoples home. The problem with the heat pump is the low output, with my old homes we could turn off heating during the day when not at home, and only heat in the evening, this house like with heat pumps, the boiler is too small to reheat, so it runs all day.

The biggest problem with UFH is lack of records and evidence to show insulation fitted under the heating, before buying this house we viewed a lot of houses, and those with under floor heating had no paperwork or photos to show what was under the floor, so were immediately rejected. In some ways I felt sorry for the sellers as they seemed to think UFH was a selling point, where in fact it was the reverse.

We refer to heating and ventilation engineers, and engineer to my mind at least means educated over level 3, so some higher education HNC, HND, Degree etc. In other words it is a complex subject. Likely looking at heat recovery units as part of the system, it is not a DIY subject.

It is also very expensive as a retro fit, and at my age 73 I would not consider fitting it. I have seen some really great systems, integrating solar, solid fuel and LPG with massive water storage tanks etc. But these were in new builds, not retro fit.
 
The floor temperature is dependent on finish, can't remember what finish is what off hand. With inhibitor in the water legionnaires should not be a problem, and yes with the under floor heating at mothers house it was not warm enough to maintain the temperature on its own and we used a towel rail as well.

I know the idea is with under floor heating the heat pump does not have to work as hard so is more economical to run, however this means you can't also heat domestic hot water at the same time, with solar panels maybe no need for DHW from heat pump?

One has to look at the home as a whole, one can't look at it in isolation. Much depends on heat loss and life style, either heat loss needs to be very low, also of course heat gain, sun through the windows added to a floor still warm can mean a very hot room, as the reaction time of under floor heating is very slow.

So we have two extremes, the fan assisted radiators is very fast reheating a room, so the room can be allowed to cool when not in use, and it can pump out a lot of heat with a small unit, and the unit can be used both to heat and cool, however it needs powering all day, there is no heat storage. The under floor heating is slow to recover, if left to cool down, so does not lend itself to geofencing, But the home retains the heat, so one may be able to set it higher over night so use off peak power.

Personally when I go to bed I want it cool, so under floor heating would not suit me, but can see how it would work well in an old peoples home. The problem with the heat pump is the low output, with my old homes we could turn off heating during the day when not at home, and only heat in the evening, this house like with heat pumps, the boiler is too small to reheat, so it runs all day.

The biggest problem with UFH is lack of records and evidence to show insulation fitted under the heating, before buying this house we viewed a lot of houses, and those with under floor heating had no paperwork or photos to show what was under the floor, so were immediately rejected. In some ways I felt sorry for the sellers as they seemed to think UFH was a selling point, where in fact it was the reverse.

We refer to heating and ventilation engineers, and engineer to my mind at least means educated over level 3, so some higher education HNC, HND, Degree etc. In other words it is a complex subject. Likely looking at heat recovery units as part of the system, it is not a DIY subject.

It is also very expensive as a retro fit, and at my age 73 I would not consider fitting it. I have seen some really great systems, integrating solar, solid fuel and LPG with massive water storage tanks etc. But these were in new builds, not retro fit.
Very interesting.
Thanks buddy.
Where does that leave me with wires running alongside UFH pipes?
CF
 
I appreciate that the idea is to run the UFH as low temp as possible eg. At 27c, but I'm just thinking about when cold weather demands higher temperatures, also when running legionnaires cycle, which could be as hot at 50c.
The UFH will have been designed to run at a sensible, non foot burning, temperature in the worst case condition. The pipes will be slightly hotter than the floor by the laws of physics, but not likely much hotter than 30C. The floor pipes themselves will not be made hotter by legionnaires cycling because they are usually temperature controlled at the manifold, separately from the rest of the system.

Regarding the wiring, it is always sensible to run non accessible wiring in conduit (IMO), but provided you derate the current carrying capability the wires will be fine.
 
Wet UFH circulating water can be reasonably high even though the floor surface temperature is only a few degrees above ambient.

45 C for screeded floors is not atypical? (I've seen via Google numbers between 30 and 60 C stated)

OP should check with his UFH designer what temps are expected to be used in the pipes via the manifold mixer (assuming there is one in this design).
 
I might have read that regs require a 300mm distance from hot pipes but I can't be sure.
I seem also to have read where it needs 300 mm separation between low and extra low voltage cables running in parallel, but this is not due to heat, it is due to capacitive and inductive linking. Don't want alarm and LAN cables with 200 volt AC on them, but to do that they would need to be together for a very long run.

If worried one could use Alitube cables, or put in metal conduit, there are typically two types of cable, thermal setting and thermal plastic, and two maximum temperatures 90ºC and 70ºC so using the 90ºC type would seem a good idea. There are specials like mineral insulated which are rated a lot higher, but that is really going OTT.

However the cost of notifying when doing DIY means unlikely to be your problem, you will have an electrician laying cables, he should select what is appropriate. BS 7671 has all the info about de-rating cables, and your electrician will have a copy, so leave it to him.

I have had problems with UFH, due to sensors not being at warmest point, but this was electric resistive not chemical or water type. If it needs 60ºC to get surface to 27ºC then I would say there is some thing very wrong. I know with the electric version I fitted we had 6 inches of polystyrene under the plywood floor that the element was laid on, and we rarely used the UFH as the floor stayed warm anyway.
 
I seem also to have read where it needs 300 mm separation between low and extra low voltage cables running in parallel, but this is not due to heat, it is due to capacitive and inductive linking.
Meanwhile, in the real World, installations like this have been just fine for many years...


180370125-new-brass-manifold-for-underfloor-heating-with-plastic-pipes-and-connected-electric-cables-for.jpg

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