Bypass valve

Thank you Johntheo5.

Yes, I have also been thinking in terms of scaled waterways in the HEx, rather than really clogged up. Once one thinks in those terms, and recognising that the supposed flow temperature sensor is not fitted on or inside the actual flow pipe as it leaves the HEx, but seems to be fitted into the metal of the HEx nearby, one can at last begin to understand how this large discrepancy between sensed and actual flow temperature could arise.

It has struck me all along that the sensed HEx temperature and the sensed 'flow temperature' are always virtually the same, hardly ever differing by more that 0.5 to 1C. It's like they are both sensing the same thing - ie HEx temperature. We do have hard water here (used to fill the heating system) and use an ion-exchange softener for our other water. The system has Sentinel protector in it.

Just to reiterate, I have cross checked and calibrated my IR thermometer to the nth degree and am confident it is telling me the truth about my measured temperatures (always with black tape on any bare metal).

I did not note down the return temperatures during those tests but recall that it was only about 4C below my measured flow temperature during the 100% one (but the ABV flow would be affecting it).

The exact match between what GeddyMortgage described about his similar Greenstar 8000 system boiler and what I am experiencing is uncanny and I read his posts almost open-mouthed!

Let’s get my ABV sorted and then reassess ……. but I suspect WB will be coming back.
 
By way of update ………. The faulty external ABV has now been replaced and the new one is working correctly, stopping the unwanted flow that was short-circuiting flow water to the return side of the boiler. Some of the moving parts of the old valve were stuck due to a build-up of black deposit, which was also present on parts of the valve seating, thus allowing flow to pass at all times. Should this have occurred in just three years in the presence of Sentinel protector, a strainer and a magnetic filter?

But the low flow temperature (15-20C below that being indicated by the boiler sensors) remains unresolved. Therefore I have arranged for a further visit by a Worcester engineer (hopefully a senior one!) with a view to replacement of the heat exchanger, as in the case of GeddyMortgage's similar boiler and identical issue.

Will post again after that visit in a couple of days' time.
 
If your pump is still set to 400mb you might take a few readings, with boiler running steadily, important ones for now are the pump speed% and boiler modulation% + any other readings you care to add....,.then change the hydraulic settings so that the pump is running at 100% like in post #38 and take another set of readings, will explain later.
Overall it does look like the flow temp measurement ls taken on some part of the boiler HEX which is pretty strange because one would think they would just use this a HEX protection and measure the actual flow temp "normally"?.
 
Thank you Johntheo5. I will also respond further later today. The pump is currently on 200mb but can easily be changed. However, the ABV is set to 400mb, so I wouldn’t want to cause that to open. More later.
 
Thank you Johntheo5. I will also respond further later today. The pump is currently on 200mb but can easily be changed. However, the ABV is set to 400mb, so I wouldn’t want to cause that to open. More later.

You'll never get them to admit this is a potential design fault... Or a Friday afternoon boiler!
 
Hi Johntheo5. Boiler has been running for a while (heating only) so I’ve taken some readings at pump setting 2, ie 200mb.

Target flow temp set: 70C
Indicated flow temp: 71C
Actual flow temp: 56.4C
Actual return temp: 44.4C
Burner modulation: 19% (6kW)
Pump modulation: 55%
Pump map setting: 2 (200mb)

The inbuilt flow temperature sensor is not on or in the flow pipe as it leaves the HEx, so I assume it is in the metal of the HEx close to the flow exit point. As you suggest, at the present time, the indicated flow and HEx temperatures are always virtually the same, so why have both sensors? But I can see how this might arise if there is contamination or scale in the waterway near the flow sensor, preventing it from measuring the real flow temp and effectively becoming a second HEx temp sensor. I will try to find out tomorrow exactly where the flow temp sensor is fitted.

I also notice that the new ABV is still passing a little flow, even though set to 400mb but it is only a small amount and the water has dropped to nearly room temperature by the time it has gone around the (insulated) 10m long pipe loop, so flow must be pretty tiny and slow. I guess this is to be expected, now having seen inside one; I can see that the spring-loaded mechanism isn’t likely to make a complete seal.

WB engineer coming tomorrow ……………..
 
Hi Johntheo5. Boiler has been running for a while (heating only) so I’ve taken some readings at pump setting 2, ie 200mb.

Target flow temp set: 70C
Indicated flow temp: 71C
Actual flow temp: 56.4C
Actual return temp: 44.4C
Burner modulation: 19% (6kW)
Pump modulation: 55%
Pump map setting: 2 (200mb)

The inbuilt flow temperature sensor is not on or in the flow pipe as it leaves the HEx, so I assume it is in the metal of the HEx close to the flow exit point. As you suggest, at the present time, the indicated flow and HEx temperatures are always virtually the same, so why have both sensors? But I can see how this might arise if there is contamination or scale in the waterway near the flow sensor, preventing it from measuring the real flow temp and effectively becoming a second HEx temp sensor. I will try to find out tomorrow exactly where the flow temp sensor is fitted.

I also notice that the new ABV is still passing a little flow, even though set to 400mb but it is only a small amount and the water has dropped to nearly room temperature by the time it has gone around the (insulated) 10m long pipe loop, so flow must be pretty tiny and slow. I guess this is to be expected, now having seen inside one; I can see that the spring-loaded mechanism isn’t likely to make a complete seal.

WB engineer coming tomorrow ……………..

……………..
Thanks Tony
Won't go through my dreary calcs just now but you may have a very high either HEX or system resistance. You appear to have a calculated flowrate of 6.75LPM at 1.82M system head ((assuming a clean HEX) which equals only 8.7LPM at a 3M head, my system which is fairly typical of a lot of systems flows 12LPM at a 3M head, theoretically meaning you would require ~ 5.7M at that flowrate. Anyway. If your engineer replaces the HEX today, you might take another set of readings at 200mb setting.
You might also ask him for the HEX head loss, very important. If you already have it in your MIs, please post it.
 
Hi John.

I’m afraid I didn’t see your message earlier, as the engineers arrived just before 7.30am. They have just left after replacing the HEx. Actual flow temperature now equal to or above(!) the indicated flow temperature. Rads too hot to touch now, so I will be able to lower the set flow temp to 60C or even lower (other than when we are heating the hot water cylinder). So problem solved just as in GeddyMortgage's case. It must have been contamination in the HEx, likely similar to my ABV.

And the flow temp sensor is definitely situated in the metal of the HEx. Both these engineers and the previous one told me that the flow temp sensor used to be fitted on the flow pipe but WB relocated it to the HEx because different readings from that one and the HEx temp sensor used to cause control problems!

I will now check the balancing of my radiators, aiming for a flow-to-return temperature drop of 20C? I believe that is what is recommended? And what is Mls please? I’ll also do a new set of readings at 200mb and post back in due course.

Many thanks indeed for your interest in and help with these two matching cases.
 
MI = Manufacturers Instructions.
Can't understand d why the don't use the previously used real flow sensor and a additional HEX sensor which doesn' play any part in the flowtemp control but will flag a alarm/trip if it does exceed a certain temperature.
 
Thanks John. I'll have a look in the instructions. Yes, it does seem strange that they are not sensing the real flow temperature more reliably (and they don’t sense the return temperature at all!). Afraid I didn’t design the boiler!
 
Hi again John.

I can’t see anything in the Installation and Maintenance Instructions about the HEx head loss. The only thing in the specs is “Available pump head at 20C system temperature rise = 2 metres”

I’ve done a set of readings at 60C set temperature but could try to do some at 70C if required:

Target flow temp set: 60C
Indicated flow temp: 63C
Actual flow temp: 67C
Actual return temp: 55C
Burner modulation: 27% (8kW)
Pump modulation: 57%
Pump map setting: 2 (200mb)
 
Big improvement with new HEX but again, same as other WB with a new HEX, a 3C dT between Target/Flow temps. Burner cuts out at Targettemp+5C so a worry that this may happen if you switched off a CH zone as the boiler now has only 2C to play with, under steady state conditions, the target/flow temps should be within a few decimal points of each other.

It's a wonder that WB are replacing these HEXs FOC, they could claim that it's "your fault" that the HEX got fouled??.
 
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Yes, one would have hoped for better temperature correspondence. The sensing arrangements don’t seem to be very satisfactory. But at least we now have good performance back and won’t be short of heat the next time it turns really cold. Only question is will the issue recur? They did check the Sentinel concentration and said it was spot-on.

I am also a bit surprised (not to say relieved!) that WB are willing to do this sort of thing under warranty; just hope a big bill doesn’t land in my inbox shortly! But no-one has said anything about charges. Phew!

Thanks again, John, for all your help and interest.
 
I guess the fact that I used a WB accredited installer and that gives me the 12-year warranty, means they will sort any issues with the boiler, even if the cause lies elsewhere. If it is the installer's fault, WB should take the matter up with them, as I can be said to have done “all due diligence”. Anyway, fingers crossed that no bill comes my way!
 

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