12.5mm Plasterboard and 12mm Hardiebacker on same wall (bathroom)?....

[jctilingservices]

Awwwww.... i can feel the love

 

[HardieBackerUK]

Hi sorry to jump on but just had this brought to my attention via Twitter.

I'm Luke and work for James Hardie. Just want to clarify a couple of points.

1) the link is not to jameshardie.co.uk so you have the American spec. HardieBacker is water resistant not just moisture resistant.

2) I know the statement of wetroom says requires tanking but this is only a full wetroom. A normal bathroom HardieBacker requires no tanking on priming.

3) tanking plasterboard whilst waterproof is that a good thing? If waterproof where does the water that penetrates the tile, grout and adhesive go? With Backer we absorb not just moisture but water too. Get a board, poor water over it and it will suck in the water and everaporate it out. Waterproofing is there to protect the usual ply and plasterboard reason being they get wet they degrade, swell, rot and potentially fail.

4) other brands are mentioned and there are more and more backer boards available. However none are as strong. Most if not all require priming, (more cost and time). The majority are 1200x600 to our 1200x800 so 33% less m2. No other manufacturer puts their boards inside water tanks to demonstrate the board doesn't fail.

Just thought I'd see if I could clear up some myths. If anyone has any questions or wants a chat drop me an email to [email protected]

Thanks for reading

 

[B17NNS]

If moisture can get into your boards it can presumably travel through them (into the studs).

If moisture can travel through tile and grout inwardly it must also be able to travel outwardly and evaporate.

What is needed in wet areas is a barrier. Tanking. And you might as well tank onto the most cost effective substrate. Which is plasterboard.

Whilst I appreciate that your product doesn't degrade when wet surely it is better that the substrate doesn't get wet at all.

 

[HardieBackerUK]

If water hits our board through the tile, grout, adhesive etc. Would we agree it's not like that of a running tap? If it hits our board it is absorbed and evaporated it will not travel through to the stud.

We have a 48hr saturation rate. It takes that long for our board to be saturated. If the board is under water that long the tiling is the least of your worries!

If it hits a waterproof barrier it cannot penetrate so where does it go? Our board is the same formula even the sides absorb water.

I understand the thought process waterproof is assumed better. But tanking plasterboard would that not be more expensive and time consuming than just Hardie onto the stud and tile direct. The whole reason behind water proof is to protect what's underneath because it doesn't like water. Good example is the US. Their regulations are simple. If a product degrades with water, you cannot use it in a wet area. Makes sense really.

#tiles are getting bigger and heavier. Plasterboard and tanking kits only average a weight of 32kg/m2. We hold 100kg/m2.

We out perform a tanked plasterboard.

 

[B17NNS]

If water hits our board through the tile, grout, adhesive etc. Would we agree it's not like that of a running tap? If it hits our board it is absorbed and evaporated it will not travel through to the stud.

Where does it evaporate to? It can either go back out (into the void in the stud wall - this is bad) or out the way it came (this is good). Tanking would make the latter the only option.

If it hits a waterproof barrier it cannot penetrate so where does it go? Our board is the same formula even the sides absorb water.

See above.

I understand the thought process waterproof is assumed better. But tanking plasterboard would that not be more expensive and time consuming than just Hardie onto the stud and tile direct.

A tanking kit is less than £50 (https://www.screwfix.com/p/mapei-shower-waterproofing-kit/78484#_=p). Assuming the plasterboard that's already there is sound that is all you need to spend to be 100% waterproof. Alternatively new plasterboard is £6 for an 8' x 4'. New plasterboard and tanking (waterproof) is still cheaper than cement board (water resistant).

The whole reason behind water proof is to protect what's underneath because it doesn't like water. Good example is the US. Their regulations are simple. If a product degrades with water, you cannot use it in a wet area. Makes sense really.

Your product is not waterproof. It is water resistant.

#tiles are getting bigger and heavier. Plasterboard and tanking kits only average a weight of 32kg/m2. We hold 100kg/m2.

Any tiler worth is salt is aware of the weight any given substrate will take. If the tiles/adhesive/grout weight is in excess of that then I'd use a cement board. And STILL tank it.

We out perform a tanked plasterboard.

Not if you require/desire waterproof you don't.

I'm not having a big downer on your product. It's an excellent product. I use it. But the common misnomer that people seem to think that it's fit and forget waterproof is just not true.

 

[HardieBackerUK]

The water could only evaporate if the product allowed. Waterproof won't it will only stop the penetration going further. Water resistant will absorb the water and evaporate it.

Appreciate the discussion and as you say you're not knocking the product. We are the market leader by some way with on excess of one million boards purchased each year.

I guess the only other way i could argue is we don't fail. Tanked plasterboard I see many times still does.

Understand I can't convert everyone but I try! Also if you screw the 5m2 average shower and bath wet ares and use 6mm Backer into the stud over the plasterboard the cost with tape is around the same. £10 per sheet 5m2 plus £5 for the hardie tape. Then you have a 10 year guarantee. Plasterboard and tanking im not aware offer any guarantee. Also the wait on the waterproof comes into play. Our board you tile direct no waiting. Depending on the tanking kit you could be waiting 30mins an hour. Time is money.

Anytime if free I'd love to have a more in depth conversation. I'm on 07827 974021 call me anytime.

Really appreciate the feedback mate.

 

[jctilingservices]

Hi sorry to jump on but just had this brought to my attention via Twitter.

I'm Luke and work for James Hardie. Just want to clarify a couple of points.

1) the link is not to jameshardie.co.uk so you have the American spec. HardieBacker is water resistant not just moisture resistant.

2) I know the statement of wetroom says requires tanking but this is only a full wetroom. A normal bathroom HardieBacker requires no tanking on priming.

3) tanking plasterboard whilst waterproof is that a good thing? If waterproof where does the water that penetrates the tile, grout and adhesive go? With Backer we absorb not just moisture but water too. Get a board, poor water over it and it will suck in the water and everaporate it out. Waterproofing is there to protect the usual ply and plasterboard reason being they get wet they degrade, swell, rot and potentially fail.

4) other brands are mentioned and there are more and more backer boards available. However none are as strong. Most if not all require priming, (more cost and time). The majority are 1200x600 to our 1200x800 so 33% less m2. No other manufacturer puts their boards inside water tanks to demonstrate the board doesn't fail.

Just thought I'd see if I could clear up some myths. If anyone has any questions or wants a chat drop me an email to [email protected]

Thanks for reading

So the info I was originally given regarding hardie boards not needing tanked, was correct, thanks very much for that, appreciated

 

[S-T]

Leaving aside cost implications and extra time, with regards to the boarding of a wall directly beside a bath with an overhead shower, is the advice therefore not to tank the hardiebacker board?

Do you mean its detrimental to tank it?

 

[B17NNS]

Leaving aside cost implications and extra time, with regards to the boarding of a wall directly beside a bath with an overhead shower, is the advice therefore not to tank the hardiebacker board?

Do you mean its detrimental to tank it?

I can't see how it can be. What would Hardie recommend in a wet room? Tanking of course.

https://www.firstclasswetrooms.co.uk/whytank

 

[HardieBackerUK]

The main disadvantage to tanking is actually the weight the wall will hold. If you install 12mm direct to stud, screw every 200mm and tape the joints with our alkaline resistant tape the wall is set to hold 100kg/m2.

If you tank it and the tanking kit has a holding weight of lets say 32kg/m2, the tanking kit is now what is holding the tiles, grout and adhesive. Yes you've made the HardieBacker waterproof, but decreased the strength of the wall by 68kg/m2.

Also installed correctly on a stud wall we offer a 10 year limited warranty. I'm not sure whether any tanking kits would offer warranty when used in conjunction with plasterboard. You'd would need to check with both the tanking kit and plasterboard manufacturers.

We only recommend tanking when being installed in a full wet room.

 

[B17NNS]

So weight issue aside (12mm porcelain is around 32kg/m2) tanked Hardie is superior to untanked Hardie. And weight issue aside if the tanking is done to the correct standard then the water-resistant properties of Hardie become redundant (because the substrate doesn't come into contact with water). Shower enclosure walls (and wall areas around a shower over a bath) come into as much water contact as wet rooms walls do. I can't for the life of me see why for the sake of £50 you wouldn't tank and give your customer the reassurance that the area is waterproof. And as I said earlier, if the substrate never becomes wet it doesn't really matter what it's made of. Cement boards are great things and I'm not knocking Hardie. Use them in every shower if you like. But don't kid yourself you are making the area waterproof. Take a paper cup and tank it. It will hold water. It will not leak. If you could make a cup out of cement board the water would saturate it and pass through to the exterior side (where your studs are).

 

[Possom]

Personally I wouldn't bother with hardi. Just regular plasterboard and tank the wet area.

Would tanked Hardiboard not at least give some additional protection compared to tanked regular plasterboard?

 

[HardieBackerUK]

I can only advise on James Hardie products. As I eluded to earlier in the thread the whole reason for tanking is because the product underneath when it is in contact with water degrades and badly. I understand your view and it's a lot of people's view regarding waterproof.

All I've tried to help with is we can offer a warranted product that in a standard bathroom on high wet walls by the shower and bath you don't need to tank. Would you get a warranty from the tanking kit manufacturer should there ever be an issue?

We back up our boards with our water baths showing our product immersed in water for over a decade.

I can't convince everyone to use our boards but I can try! As I also said earlier I really appreciate the discussion.

 

[Adam182]

Spoiler

I can only advise on James Hardie products. As I eluded to earlier in the thread the whole reason for tanking is because the product underneath when it is in contact with water degrades and badly. I understand your view and it's a lot of people's view regarding waterproof.

All I've tried to help with is we can offer a warranted product that in a standard bathroom on high wet walls by the shower and bath you don't need to tank. Would you get a warranty from the tanking kit manufacturer should there ever be an issue?

We back up our boards with our water baths showing our product immersed in water for over a decade.

I can't convince everyone to use our boards but I can try! As I also said earlier I really appreciate the discussion.

Thankyou for everyones feedback, its become quite the topic for conversation. As the OP of this thread I would be more than happy to take delivery of some Hardiebacker to put it to the test and give my honest feedback

 

[B17NNS]

Would tanked Hardiboard not at least give some additional protection compared to tanked regular plasterboard?

If tanking on plasterboard fails the plasterboard will deteriorate.

If tanking on cement board fails the cement board will not deteriorate.

Whilst the cement board will not itself deteriorate when wet it will wick and absorb moisture throughout itself whereupon it comes into contact with stud work (the fabric of the building) and we all know timber and moisture are not friends.

Therefore either proposition is not a good one. So tank it and tank it right. Then the substrate doesn't matter.

As for the argument about only tanking wet rooms perhaps consider the two following scenarios.

Room 1 (domestic shower)
1000 x 1000 shower enclosure, glass door on one wall, tile on the other three. Cast resin tray (waterproof), rain head shower plus handheld.

Room 2 (wet room enclosure)
1000 x 1000 shower enclosure, glass door on one wall, tile on the other three. Pre-formed wet room tray (waterproof), rain head shower plus handheld.

You wouldn't think twice about not tanking room 2 because its a wet room right?

But they're both the exactly the same - a 1000 x 1000 tiled room with a waterproof floor. They both need tanking just the same.