5 bedroom Cottage but 2 bedrooms are not habitable ?

[Doggit]

As the song goes, rip it up and start again. You need to get the floor out, and install new joists, then fit the floor, reinforce the dormer/perlin (may well need a flitch plate either side of the dormer), put in the insulation and then plasterboard and plaster the rooms. You don't need to worry about a membrane under the tiles, and a 30mm air gap under the insulation should be fine so you'll want a 50mm batten on top of the joists, and 100mm of celotex in between the joists, then 30mm plus plasterboard across the joists to stop theremal bridging.

Any response from the estate agents. If we assume that you did the letter last week, you may not get a reply for a couple more days, but if you don't, then send a copy to the senior partner, as the firm may well be liable, and they'd need to know. Do you have legal protection on your hous insurance.

 

[wwwebber]

As the song goes, rip it up and start again. You need to get the floor out, and install new joists, then fit the floor, reinforce the dormer/perlin (may well need a flitch plate either side of the dormer), put in the insulation and then plasterboard and plaster the rooms. You don't need to worry about a membrane under the tiles, and a 30mm air gap under the insulation should be fine so you'll want a 50mm batten on top of the joists, and 100mm of celotex in between the joists, then 30mm plus plasterboard across the joists to stop theremal bridging.

Any response from the estate agents. If we assume that you did the letter last week, you may not get a reply for a couple more days, but if you don't, then send a copy to the senior partner, as the firm may well be liable, and they'd need to know. Do you have legal protection on your hous insurance.

Ok, I don't have the money to get this sorted to such a degree and I am unlikely to have it for quite some time (years). I just want a couple of draught free, safe, habitable rooms that are easy to heat / cool. In regards to the dormer, I think I'll have to invite the former owner over and ask him to explain how he's supported the dormer and the cut purlin. The two rooms directly below both of the dormers have had the ceilings re-plastered which has either been done to cover issues or he's actually put something in for support. This is my main area of concern so we'll see. FYI I posted a picture of the dormer on page 2 of this thread.

Regarding insulation, I don't actually have a membrane layer (can see bare tiles etc on the inside) - so for a 80mm rafter then surely I can get away with 50mm celotex (with vcl outward) between the rafters leaving a 30mm air gap as you suggest and another 50mm + plasterboard ontop (beneath actually) and be comfortable ?. I also want to pull all of the floorboards up and sound insulate between the joists and then will underlay and carpet on top of the replaced floor boards. Then there's dwarf 'knee' walls which I can insulate directly (currently just 10mm plywood lol) and thus not have to re-insulate all the way down to the eves. This leaves the space behind the walls as cold loft storage.

I'm still waiting for a comment from our conveyancing solicitors so have not contacted anyone else just yet. I need to scope out the breadth & depth of the issues first, what I can do with the rooms, what I can't and what needs to be rectified before I wade in guns blazing which is why I'm here so apologies for the many questions.

I guess I just want to use the rooms for the purpose that they were described as - which is bedrooms. For various reasons I understand that I don't really need to meet all regs (thanks for your comments here) for everything so if the dormers are not going to imminently collapse, and the floor isn't going to fall through and I can fix the insulation, draught, noise and fire safety issues then I should in theory be ok to use them as bedrooms ?

All advise is very much appreciated - thanks again.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

I need to scope out the breadth & depth of the issues first

Yes I concur, after three pages we still don't have a clear and concise understanding of the whole purchase event history despite us asking so it's pretty pointless saying who might be to blame or responsible. Of which any legal action is likely to be more expensive than fixing any real issues that might or might not actually need remedial works.

 

[geraldthehamster]

Regarding insulation, I don't actually have a membrane layer (can see bare tiles etc on the inside) - so for a 80mm rafter then surely I can get away with 50mm celotex (with vcl outward) between the rafters leaving a 30mm air gap as you suggest and another 50mm + plasterboard ontop (beneath actually) and be comfortable ?.

Yes. Not sure which way you mean by "outward" - VCL goes on the warm (room) side of the insulation. Taped, foil-backed Celotex provides a VCL.

 

[Doggit]

Sorry wwebber, you're effectively asking us to tell you the bedrooms are okay to use, and they're not. You need a builder in to asses the situation, and to get them to quote you for the work, even though you're not going ahead for now. I wouldn't be happy using the bedrooms with 3x2 joists, AND CERTAIILNLY NOT if the purlins have been cut, and are putting extra pressure on the joists below. If those relevant joist haven't been reinforced, then you've got the weight of the roof pushing down on them, and you're assumption that they plastered over the cracks, pretty much verifies that.

If I'm right, then that has to be fixed damned quick, or you risk the roof ending up in the living room as well. I would be inclined to take a day off work, and go and sit in the coneyancers office, and ask them to give this the urgency that's needed. I don't know whether it's worth asking the old owners what they did, because they'd very likely smell a rat, and not tell you the truth.

Lift the floorboards, and have a look at the joists by the purlins, and see if there's any additional support before you start worrying about how to make the rooms habbitable - make sure they're safe first. And make sure the house Insurance is okay, and it'll cost about £30 to add legal insuarance to it; although that might get rejected if they realise it was added to handle a preknown problem, but get that sorted next.

 

[geraldthehamster]

I'm sorry, but when I came to renovate our dormer bungalow, I discovered that half the first floor was on 3 inch joists, which explained the slight bounce in the floor. Since the first floor had been made habitable, an entire family had been brought up in the house, over decades. Nobody had fallen through the floor.

As I was fitting a new floor in any case, I fitted deeper joists between the shallower ones. It wasn't difficult and it wasn't expensive.

If you know a trusted builder, or a structural engineer, I would get them to assess the situation. But I certainly wouldn't panic.

 

[Doggit]

If it was just the floor Gerald, then I'd completely agree with you, but having cut the purlin, it's now the 3x2s that are holding up the roof. Okay, maybe don't panic, but I do think there's a need for serious concern. Once the floors been sorted, the rest can be done in stages, and it'll be cold in winter, and hot in summer, but at least it'll be safe. As long as the purlins are supported by a flitch plate, then I suspect you're trick of putting the deeper ones alongside would work - even if building control would have a fit.

Did you just sit them alongside, or did you bed at least one side in to the wall. Obviously, the ceiling below has to come down, but it's a DIYable job

 

[geraldthehamster]

Yes, I agree a builder needs to look at what was done in respect of the purlin.

I ran the new joists from a central spine wall, onto to the wall plate on each side of the house. They are independent of the 3x2 ceiling joists on which the floor previously rested.

 

[Mr Chibs]

On a separate note, looking at your images... I don't think you should be using polystyrene for insulation like that... it's quite a fire risk, yes, small but this should be replaced with celotex for example
As mentioned you could add thicker battens to the rafters and install thicker insulation in-between them, yes, leave an air-gap.

 

[wwwebber]

A good mix of replies thank you - sounds like my priority is to find out if the dormers have been installed with adequate support and that the cut purlins are also supported properly. I'll pop across the road tonight and have a quick word with the former owner who did it DIY and I'll ask our builder to pop in and check things over too. Then I'll decide next steps.

 

[Nakajo]

Celotex? Fire? Now where have I heard those terms before?

 

[wwwebber]

ok have an update. Have had a visit from a structural engineer and he confirms that the dormers aren't safe and recommends underpinning the vertical struts holding up the cut purlins with a 4m steel beam between brick walls. They aren't going to collapse imminently but he suggests I get it done next year asap when funds allow. Builder will be submitting a quote once the engineer has done the calcs etc. It is likely to cost about £2500 to do both loft rooms

Have chased my conveyancers and provided the detail from the engineers. Lets see if they respond this time. Not spoken to the previous owner yet, just fully scoping out my position first.

In regards to the flooring, looks like if I put 7x2 floor joists in I'll lose room height in either the loft space (not really an option) or height in the rooms below and incur huge disruption and cost

Will keep you posted and thanks again for your input

 

[garyo]

a quote once the engineer has done the calcs etc. It is likely to cost about £2500 to do both loft rooms

That sounds too cheap. Does that include materials, making good, decor, access for the steel fitting?

 

[wwwebber]

That sounds too cheap. Does that include materials, making good, decor, access for the steel fitting?

Materials as in the steels ? - yes. Nothing else, just installation. Its only an estimate from the engineer - will get proper costs from builder soon.

 

[wwwebber]

Update from my solicitors, apparently the sellers installed the dormers in 2002 and they were inspected by the local authority at the time but the sellers were unable to produce documentation to prove it. Is this something I can check with the local council ?, ie can we check past building control inspections and the results ?. This is now over 15 years ago now though

Some additional info from the solicitors though, historically these rooms were likely to have been used as maids quarters, and the presence of side windows in both loft rooms supports this and therefore the description of them being bedrooms is stated as being existing and historical and thus not inaccurate.

One final note to add, I still hold onto some hope that these dormers are in fact properly supported - we just don't know where yet. Need to have a good chat with them directly asap.