adding a socket to a ring or radial? mm

[bazaa]

wanted to add a socket to the wall for a tv on the wall/stand:
by taking it from the socket thats upstairs. (is it ok to do that and if theres 1 cable only going into that socket am I correct in assuming that it's a radial circuit or it's a spur on a ring which then I wouldn't be able to, ill have a look at that tomorrow to see if its a ring)

https://vimeo.com/1095163656?share=copy#t=0
https://vimeo.com/1095162932?share=copy



(these are the downstairs sockets i assume on a ring cause of the 2 wires and is the single socket with 1 wire i assume it's a spur, (was a single gang socket(wire going from the white box just abit up on the wall for a single socket but electrician removed the socket and left the box)

whats the easiest method to add a socket to the wall. ( can rip out floorboards they will be getting renewed anyway)

 

[robinbanks]

and if theres 1 cable only going into that socket am I correct in assuming that it's a radial circuit or it's a spur on a ring

It's either the last socket on a radial or it's a spur off a ring. To identify if you have a ring, go to the consumer unit and count the number of wires exiting the MCB/RCBO labelled for upstairs. If there is only one it's likely you have a radial. If there are two, turn off the electricity at the main isolating switch and use a multimeter to prove continuity between the two wires. Then remove any socket on the ring and test again. If you observe continuity in the first case and not in the second it it likely you have a ring

If you have thus determined that you have a spur feeding the socket you propose to spur off, you should take steps to protect the spur wire at source if you plan to add more sockets to it, or you should upgrade the the entire wire of the spur to a conductor size of greater current carrying capacity than the breaker for the installation method applicable. Be aware of the rules surrounding electrical safety zones

In typical terms this means either spurring off the original socket to a fused outlet, in the same size wire as the ring is (2.5mm) then feeding your two sockets (the one you want to spur off and the new one you will install) from the fuses outlet, or upgrading the entire spur run to 4mm

sockets i assume on a ring cause of the 2 wires

Even on a radial circuit most of the sockets will have two wires

whats the easiest method to add a socket to the wall. ( can rip out floorboards they will be getting renewed anyway)

Depends what the wall is made of

is it ok to do that

It's not ideal, as you then have a socket that is fed from a circuit that is mislabelled. Someone wanting to do work on that socket might see the socket downstairs, switch off the "downstairs sockets" circuit but leave the upstairs on, the socket is still live but they don't test for it, and end up dying

I'd find another downstairs socket to feed it from tbh

 

[EFLImpudence]

It's not ideal, as you then have a socket that is fed from a circuit that is mislabelled.

Amend the label?

 

[robinbanks]

Sure, that's an option

"Upstairs sockets keys plus one spur behind the dining room tv downstairs"

Probably need to laser print it in 2pt font so it fits and is legible/cable tie a magnifying glass to the CU ..

But if a little bit more strive could see it being linked into the downstairs circuit, it would be better

 

[bazaa]

It's either the last socket on a radial or it's a spur off a ring. To identify if you have a ring, go to the consumer unit and count the number of wires exiting the MCB/RCBO labelled for upstairs. If there is only one it's likely you have a radial. If there are two, turn off the electricity at the main isolating switch and use a multimeter to prove continuity between the two wires. Then remove any socket on the ring and test again. If you observe continuity in the first case and not in the second it it likely you have a ring

If you have thus determined that you have a spur feeding the socket you propose to spur off, you should take steps to protect the spur wire at source if you plan to add more sockets to it, or you should upgrade the the entire wire of the spur to a conductor size of greater current carrying capacity than the breaker for the installation method applicable. Be aware of the rules surrounding electrical safety zones

In typical terms this means either spurring off the original socket to a fused outlet, in the same size wire as the ring is (2.5mm) then feeding your two sockets (the one you want to spur off and the new one you will install) from the fuses outlet, or upgrading the entire spur run to 4mm

Even on a radial circuit most of the sockets will have two wires

Depends what the wall is made of

It's not ideal, as you then have a socket that is fed from a circuit that is mislabelled. Someone wanting to do work on that socket might see the socket downstairs, switch off the "downstairs sockets" circuit but leave the upstairs on, the socket is still live but they don't test for it, and end up dying

I'd find another downstairs socket to feed it from tbh

Ok so I did some digging downstairs sockets are on a B32 mcb with 2 live wires going into the CB, upstairs is also on a B32 upstairs sockets + doorbell, 2 live wires. The ones downstairs there's 4 sockets on this circuit 3 are in place and wired up, just the one you see in the picture in that white box is the one we were going to remove but I was thinking i can just re route this to where I need the socket, what I need to determine is if the cable is 2.5 or 4mm. I opened each socket up and they all have a single cable going into them apart from one socket (and the single socket on the floor in the pic) so is this a ring or a radial with spurs? vid of where I want the socket also I wanted to ask that i need to add the wire running up behind those pipes with conduit then to get plastered over etc, would that be ok?
gif below

404 File Not Found - Jumpshare

The file you are looking for does not exist.

jmp.sh

this is the wire which had a single gang socket, there was a wire coming out of the white box into the socket which was removed, I was thinking to use this wire for the new socket that i want to put on the other wall.

also this socket is on the one upstairs is this wire just getting extended by a connector block im assuming, and how do you check which socket is spurred on a ring circuit?

 

[morqthana]

that doesn't look good

 

[bazaa]

View attachment 385108

that doesn't look good

which part the sheathing is dirty from the dust, haven't checked whats in that tape yet haha assuming an old connector block

 

[morqthana]

I'm sure that others can be more specific about why, but I'm sure you're not allowed to have a connector block wrapped in tape.

And can tell you exactly what you need to do to fix it while its all exposed.

 

[bazaa]

I'm sure that others can be more specific about why, but I'm sure you're not allowed to have a connector block wrapped in tape.

And can tell you exactly what you need to do to fix it while its all exposed.

what to do to fix it?

also I'm thinking maybe there's 2 radial circuits coming off this 32a mcb but then wouldn't it need to be a 4mm cable since its a 32a. I will check it tomorrow with removing 1 of the wires from the cb to see what is getting power then, but no it shud be 1x MCB/RCBO = 1x Circuit Radial or Ring. might be a junction box under the floorboards?

 

[robinbanks]

also I'm thinking maybe there's 2 radial circuits coming off this 32a mcb but then wouldn't it need to be a 4mm cable since its a 32a

Two 2.5mm cores exiting an MCB is highly likely to be a ring. As I wrote in my first post, disconnect them both and (use a multimeter to) test the resistance between the two. It should be very low, and make your meter beep if in beep mode. If it does, then removing any socket (so as to break the connection elsewhere than the CU) will make the meter show open circuit/no beep/no continuity. That is a strong indicator that it is a ring

Highly unlikely to be two radials as an original design because there isn't an installation method that would allow it to safely carry 32 amps. A break in the circuit caused by wear and tear or other bodged work may have caused it to become two radials, but that should be checked for (and fixed) if it tests as open circuit to start with

I opened each socket up and they all have a single cable going into them apart from one socket (and the single socket on the floor in the pic) so is this a ring or a radial with spurs?

I don't find your post easy to follow; can you get a multimeter and use it to work out a plan of your wiring? Eg after you have pulled two sockets off and are wondering if some wire present in the back of each is the same wire, temporarily bend the live and neutral cores at one end so they touch then go to the other end and test the resistance (which should be very low), then bend the cores so they do not touch and test again; it should now be high. Label each end of the cable with the same unique ("spur A" for the first wire,"spur B" for the second etc). When all cables are tested sketch them and show us the plan

Remember, use the multimeter in AC voltage mode to test between L and N before touching the wires; the previous owner has clearly demonstrated their incompetence with a junction box covered in electrical tape, and may have done the same poor idea you now propose of having an upstairs socket supplied via the downstairs labelled circuit (or vice versa), and you may have turned off only the upstairs (so as to keep the freezer alive), and end up grabbing a live cable. Test wires before touching them.

If you have opened several sockets and found a single wire, and you have determined that you have a ring, then the single wire socket is a spur and cannot be spurred off again without finding the other end of the wire (the socket it was spurred off) and either replacing the wire with 4mm or placing a protection device (fused outlet for example) so that the original 2.5mm section of wire between the socket and [all the multiple spurs it must supply] do not overload it

 

[bazaa]

Two 2.5mm cores exiting an MCB is highly likely to be a ring. As I wrote in my first post, disconnect them both and (use a multimeter to) test the resistance between the two. It should be very low, and make your meter beep if in beep mode. If it does, then removing any socket (so as to break the connection elsewhere than the CU) will make the meter show open circuit/no beep/no continuity. That is a strong indicator that it is a ring

Highly unlikely to be two radials as an original design because there isn't an installation method that would allow it to safely carry 32 amps. A break in the circuit caused by wear and tear or other bodged work may have caused it to become two radials, but that should be checked for (and fixed) if it tests as open circuit to start with


I don't find your post easy to follow; can you get a multimeter and use it to work out a plan of your wiring? Eg after you have pulled two sockets off and are wondering if some wire present in the back of each is the same wire, temporarily bend the live and neutral cores at one end so they touch then go to the other end and test the resistance (which should be very low), then bend the cores so they do not touch and test again; it should now be high. Label each end of the cable with the same unique ("spur A" for the first wire,"spur B" for the second etc). When all cables are tested sketch them and show us the plan

Remember, use the multimeter in AC voltage mode to test between L and N before touching the wires; the previous owner has clearly demonstrated their incompetence with a junction box covered in electrical tape, and may have done the same poor idea you now propose of having an upstairs socket supplied via the downstairs labelled circuit (or vice versa), and you may have turned off only the upstairs (so as to keep the freezer alive), and end up grabbing a live cable. Test wires before touching them.

If you have opened several sockets and found a single wire, and you have determined that you have a ring, then the single wire socket is a spur and cannot be spurred off again without finding the other end of the wire (the socket it was spurred off) and either replacing the wire with 4mm or placing a protection device (fused outlet for example) so that the original 2.5mm section of wire between the socket and [all the multiple spurs it must supply] do not overload it

I don't have a multi meter at the moment do u recommend I buy a mm or a voltage and continuity tester? and do you recommend any budget friendly ones for the mm.

don't worry I test everything with a fluke pen before touching them and turn off all the electrics at the CU, I haven't touched any conductors yet anyway was just opening the sockets to see how many wires are entering them. The plasterer is coming in the evening to have a look at what needs to be done, so I need to get a crack on with this and I'll see if I can rip out this laminate flooring to get under the floorboards to see where the wires are routing to and to see if there are any junction boxes.

Also, where one of the sockets is installed, if I remember correctly there use to be a fused switch there which was for an outside floodlight, but an electrician came recently and removed that since we didn't need it.

Where that single wire is going into that junction box also had another wire coming out of that to power up a single gang socket, so if I just get a 4mm cable trace that cable back to where it's going connect it up and just put it on the opposite wall where I need the socket should be ok?

 

[robinbanks]

I don't have a multi meter at the moment do u recommend I buy a mm

Screw fix item 793RT, its a tenner (and unlike the previous generation which had served me well but irritatingly no beeper), it has a beeper

don't worry I test everything with a fluke pen before touching them

Well, voltage pens are renown for giving false readings, but I'll admit they're more likely to falsely declare a dead wire live than the other way round, and being as yours is from a decent make, all the better. Still wouldn't dream of using one as the definitive and only proof though

see where the wires are routing to and to see if there are any junction boxes.

If you find any that aren't maintenance free they should be replaced or wired out

Where that single wire is going into that junction box

can't see anything in your pictures that I would call a junction box; show a picture of what you referring to?

 

[bazaa]

Screw fix item 793RT, its a tenner (and unlike the previous generation which had served me well but irritatingly no beeper), it has a beeper


Well, voltage pens are renown for giving false readings, but I'll admit they're more likely to falsely declare a dead wire live than the other way round, and being as yours is from a decent make, all the better. Still wouldn't dream of using one as the definitive and only proof though

If you find any that aren't maintenance free they should be replaced or wired out

can't see anything in your pictures that I would call a junction box; show a picture of what you referring to?

gordon benit

I was just thinking might be a better idea since the wiring is a mess for the ones we've been discussing until i get under the floorboards to see where everything is going. Other side of the wall is finished kitchen tiles, socket, I was thinking open the socket and then drill through the backbox etc, If i remember correctly the kitchen is on a B20 cb radial, theirs 3 sockets on the circuit and a extractor chimney hood switch. 1 socket powers the microwave, another one is for the toaster and kettle. one is just a iphone charger. I'm thinking if the load would be enough because this new socket im adding is for 2 tv's and a extention cord which will power up a cctv nvr box. ill have a look under the floorboards though before i make a decision

 

[robinbanks]

LED TVs and an NVR is very little load overall, but maybe a good opportunity to assess how much of a bin fire the existing wiring is ..

 

[bazaa]

LED TVs and an NVR is very little load overall, but maybe a good opportunity to assess how much of a bin fire the existing wiring is ..

i've just pulled some floorboards up this is whats under, so i'm assuming there's a connection point next to the socket on the wall which has a single wire in it, the bit i've drawn next to the socket is where the switched fuse spur was but they removed the socket since we dont have the floodlight anymore.

This cable seems like a 4mm is it better for me to swap the jb out for a 32amp one and then add the 4mm cable supplying the new 2 gang socket.