Advice on pipe-freezing kit

[Just_back_from_the_pub]

Can anyone recommend a decent pipe-freezing kit, please? I am unable to get sufficient length on the 15mm pipe behind a WC for the 6/7inch jacket of one of the cheap and cheerful £20 jobs. So instead I want to try and get something like an Arctic Polar Ssytem. They are about £90 - £150.

Any advice much appreciated.

 

[chrishutt]

Sounds like a sledge hammer to crack a nut. Presumably you can't turn the water off (why not?) - how about a "wet" fit of a pushfit stop valve? If you can cope with say 5 seconds of water splashing everywhere, it's the answer.

 

[ChrisR]

Try the cheap one. They are a lot colder than the Polar Arctic.
If it's on the mains, try turning offin the road, if doing it live turn all the other mains taps on.

 

[kevplumb]

get a big can
spray it on the pipe listen
for the crack and be quick or wet

 

[Just_back_from_the_pub]

This is a rather complicated situation in a large (poorly maintained) 5th floor flat in a 30’s block where a leak has occurred on a WC (inlet valve connector) in one of the bathrooms. At one side of the flat is the kitchen with the hot and cold (mains) appearing to have their own service pipes which run vertically up the the building. At the other side there are entirely separate supplies that provide the hot and cold (tank) that serve the two small bathrooms at the other end of the flat. Therefore I am pretty certain that there is no lateral connection ie under the floor, between the two supplies.

Having removed the tiles where I can I have found the wall to be composed of plaster, thin vertical strips of wood and chicken wire. It is an absolute bugger to get behind but I reckon I have gained about as much access as I possibly can. The pipes here are very confusingly laid out from what I can see and that is not a very great deal. There are no accessible service valves other than those on the bath not far from where the WC pipe is teed off. But these valves can only be seen after removing a small panel from the bath. These valves (22mm) do not have a wheel-ring or tap but some kind of odd groove. I have tried to turn with a screwdriver but I cannot properly get the tool into position. I have to do it by feel rather than by sight. The problem is that it is difficult to figure which way the water is running. I tried to freeze the 22mm pipe from which the 15mm supply to the WC is teed using the said ‘cheapo’ kit but it never stopped the water to the WC. Presumably I was on the pipe the wrong side of the tee – the correct side of the tee does not have sufficient length to get the jacket on. Hence my question about a suitable kit that would hopefully do the job.

Yes, such a purchase does seem a bit excessive for one job, but then it will become part of a tool collection that needs to grow. Also I am very reluctant to do anything ‘live’. The elderly woman had an extractor installed in the bathroom recently and the sparks reckoned it to be extremely unsafe with some of the circuits not being earthed. I simply do not think it is worth the risk.

 

[Paul Barker]

Sounds like you are trying to freeze the pipe with the leak flowing. Impossible. You musn't have any flow of water or no freezing kit would work.

The isolation valves under the bath sound like they have become stuck. The cold one may be before or after your branch it isn't clear to me.

You have three or four options. Find out the movements of the other residents of the building and when most are clearly out, and you can talk to those who are in, turn off the water to the building, the ground or basement flat may have a control there would be one in the street. If someone from a lower flat is in get them to run a kitchen cold tap throughout and remind them the importance of not turning it off even though they will see it dripping. Do your repair.

Find some way to seal up the leaky tap connector externally for long enough to freeze the pipe.

clean the pipe of paint go through it like lightning with a pipe slice and bang on a pushfit service valve as already suggested.

Undo the tap connector live, dig out the old fibre washer with an electrical screwdriver and put a new one in, reassemble.

Prepare fro flack from flat below, but often these situations pass off without a legal case.

 

[ChrisR]

Agree v much about the paint. You can freeze a pipe with a SMALL dribble as long as you do it quickly. Again the diy kit IS quick, but you might consider hiring a CO2 kit if you can find one. They are fast, electric is slow, but at least you can take all day.
If you put a valve on live, have the valve OPEN with a hose going somewhere safe on the other end!

 

[Just_back_from_the_pub]

Sorry guys, I should make clear that this leak is not from a mains pipe, it is fed by a tank. Clearly the obvious thing to do here would be to drain the tank and fit a few service valves. Problem is that three or four other flats are currently unoccupied with their owners away on holiday and the caretaker is extremely reluctant to drain the tank as this is likely to give rise to air-locks subsequently. Added to this the boiler maintenance people need to be present if the water pressure to the hw boiler is to be shut off. So draining the tank is a non-starter I’m afraid.

I might end up having to do a ‘live’ job but even this is complicated because where the supply pipe is directly behind the wc cistern and I cannot remove that without cutting the supply. So I would have to do this twice; once, to plug the connector and twice, to insert the valve.

The leak is not especially fast but perhaps this is what has prevented the my attempt to freeze the pipe. If I am to use any type of freezer subsequently I will pay more attention to stopping the flow of the leak. Is rubber-wrap a good bet for this do you think? Thanks guys in anycase.

 

[kevplumb]

if you can get to the tank it might be worth trying to plug the connector

 

[Paul Barker]

Isn't there a gate valve on it?


Otherwiose, yes I would say bung the tank, you can get a pair of conical shaped rubber bungs at trade counters. For domestic tanks one of those things you put in a wine bottle and pull the lever fits if you don't have your bungs to hand, I've borrowed them a few times. Sounds like your tank could be very large though and consequently have large pipework so some ingenuity could be required to find something that will both bung it but also be removable.

A friend of mine bunged a huge industrial tank with a plumbers mait container. Only problem was the suction was so great and head of water so powerful they couldn't get it out afterwards. He had to strip down and dive in (these tanks are the size of the little pool at public swimming baths and take about a day to drain down) force a small passage at the side of the plumbers mate until enough water had got the other side to equalise the pressures and allow him to remove it. We don't want to see you in that situation do we?

Isn't there a gate valve on it?

Failing all that, do it live. Actually on reflection I don't use pushfit for live bang ons, I use compression because it's usually easier to get on in a hurry and once it's on even before it's tightened up, just holding it on is sufficient to prevent the deluge, soon tightened up and everyone can dry off.

 

[chrishutt]

Paul Barker wrote

I use compression because it's usually easier to get on in a hurry and once it's on even before it's tightened up, just holding it on is sufficient to prevent the deluge

Good point. Compression also has the advantage of not being quite so susceptible to failure due to minor defects/deposits on tube.

 

[Just_back_from_the_pub]

Thanks for the comments guys. Because there are only four distribution pipes from the cw storage tank - presumably each pipe feeding four flats each of this sixteen flat building - plugging the outlet from inside the tank would mean effectively stopping, albeit temporarily, three other flats. As Paul says, the tank is huge and the prospect taking a dip in that lot is seriously out of the question. Reckon it's genner be the wet fit. For reasons I have explained we are unable to drain the tank.

The occupants of the flat with the leak are to go away on holiday in a couple of days. Technically the leak could get worse during their absence and possibly cause a hole load of damage. In order to pre-empt this I will do the job live. I will notify as many other residents as possible to run their (tank supplied) taps so as to minimise the pressure when the cut is made. Generally, though, what is the legal situation with this type of thing? Paul, please try to avoid sensationalism as I do not want to commence the work in shat pants!

 

[ChrisR]

Have you got a wet vac? Mine (£30 in Wickes), with the filter removed sucks up water at a surprisingly useful rate. Have used it with a dustpan handle stuck in its hose and pan stuck to the wall - collects the first couple of gallons anyway!

 

[Just_back_from_the_pub]

Blimey, am I really likely to have to deal with this volume of water? I suppose I could pop up to Wickes to get one just to be safe.

 

[Paul Barker]

I don't expect you to have too much trouble, there must be other taps in your flat off the supply, run those as suggested by others, clean any paint off first, then cut rapidly with a pipe slice that has a new wheel in it, take a nice new clean service valve with copper olives, make sure the olive is square inside by doing up the nut by hand until it is so but not tight, if you are really worried put a short piece of 15mm copper in the other end with a hose on leading to bath and turn service valve on as someone else suggested, but I probably wouldn't bother if I were doing it, get a good strong grip of your pipe slice and pull it off like a man, bend the upper pipe away, slide your service valve on, holding it downward with one hand get your grips onto body of service valve with other hand, holding in downward direction free up first hand to take your wrench and tighten up olive, you're safe.