Am I doing something wrong or is my system goosed ?

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I have been having a right mare of a time trying to get rid of what I’m guessing is excess air in my CH system. I was hoping that it might miraculously clear itself after fitting a new radiator in my bathroom but I’ve had no luck with that. I can only presume that I must be doing summat wrong so I’m coming “cap in hand” so to speak to all you guys here to see if I can get any pointers. Basically, all my radiators regularly make odd gurgles or “whooshing” noises but when any of the rads we normally have off (room thermostats turned onto frost protection only at about 10˚C) fire-up from the room thermostats calling for heat, they make a right racket. It starts making a sound like blowing across the end of an open pipe while lowering it into water (i.e. tone goes up) until it stops and is followed by a massive gurgling and whooshing noise for about 30 secs, then the tone starts again, although a fair bit quieter followed by another slightly quieter gurgling etc. This then settles down to an occasional odd gurgle. Hope that explains it enough.

My system components are a Worcester Bosch Greenstar 9i Boiler, Magnaclean Filter, radiators are Milano Aruba Flow apart from the bathroom one which is a Stainless Aeon Lunar unit.

Normally by now I would’ve called in a plumber but seeing as I’ve just been made redundant AGAIN after only 5 mths at my latest workplace, money is tight and I would like to try to get it sorted myself as A, I’ve got a fair bit of time to spend on it now and B, it’ll hopefully cost a lot less.

Anyway, I’ve attached a schematic of what my heating pipes look like up in the loft to try to help explain and what I’ve tried up to now is below:

I turned the system off and left it for about 2 hours to cool while I added the new Bathroom radiator. I then closed all the existing rads off, turned on the filling loop and filled the new radiator and bled it. I then locked the valves open and bled all the remaining radiators but got no air out of any of them, then turned the filling loop off. I reset the valves, turned the system on and made sure all thermostats were calling for heat and all rad valves were fully open. Lots of gurgling ensued (as it does normally) for about 15-20 mins and then it quietened down. It was now getting past 7 o-clock so I turned off the bedrooms and hall rads as usual (trying to save a few quid not heating areas we can manage without) and left it running on the normal heat & timing settings. (turns onto frost protection only at 23:00 and comes on at 07:30)

Today I turned all the thermostats on but once the system had got up to heat, turned all the radiators off at their valves and lockshields, then one by one (starting with the closest to the boiler) individually fully opened each rad to the system (was told to do this a while ago by a local plumber as a way of trying to remove an airlock) and let each one run for about 10-15 mins. Once that was completed on all the rads, I turned the system off and let it cool again then bled each radiator again and also the filter in the loft. Again, no air out of the radiators and a just a tiny little hiss out of the filter. According to the boiler manual, there is an automatic vent fitted to it so I shouldn't have anything to bleed within the boiler itself. Funnily enough, after doing all that (and having everything crossed) once I turned the system back on again every bloody rad started making the gurgling noises, so it appeared it got worse than before although it has quietened down a fair bit now.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that every now and then, we can hear the water running through the radiators. It's not a whooshing or gurgling noise, just the sound of water running through pipes and it comes and goes. The boiler pressure hasn’t changed from its usual just over 1 bar when cold to between 1.5 & 2 bar when running flat out and there are no signs of any leaks anywhere.

Sorry for the long post but I've tried to give as much info as possible and I now admit to being completely at a loss so would really appreciate any other methods I can try. Picture below.

TIA.

CH.jpg
 
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Fernox leak sealer was put in mine recently and seems to be working. Was having the same issues
 
Fernox leak sealer was put in mine recently and seems to be working. Was having the same issues

The rads & altered pipework are only 3 years or so old and there are absolutely no leaks whatsoever anywhere so surely it's not going to be anything like that ?
Rust in system causes gas (air)
Any inhibitor.added?

I knew I'd forget to give some details ! When I first changed the pipework and radiators from under the floor to the loft, I thoroughly flushed the complete system out with fresh water then ran it with Fernox F3 for a week. Emptied the system, cleaned the filter then refilled it with a couple of bottles of Fernox F1. I then changed one radiator so went through the same procedure again, just to be sure. The only time I haven't flushed and cleaned it is when I fitted this last radiator (the stainless Aeon) as I thought it wouldn't need it. The noises have been present since a bit before I fitted the rad though.

All the water that has come out while bleeding the rads has been perfectly clear, just the slight tinge of colour to it compared to fresh water, which I took to be the F1 in the system. I clean the filter twice a year and apart from after the initial work, only has very minor deposits in it.
 
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After each bleed, are you repressurising the system from the filling loop?
 
After each bleed, are you repressurising the system from the filling loop?

No, as there was hardly any discernible pressure loss on the boiler gauge after checking the rads. It is working as it raises and lowers as the boiler heats and cools. Just a jet of water came out of the bleed valves instantly so they were only open for a second or so. I did turn the loop on when I filled and bled the latest rad after connecting it to the system though.
 
No, as there was hardly any discernible pressure loss on the boiler gauge after checking the rads. It is working as it raises and lowers as the boiler heats and cools. Just a jet of water came out of the bleed valves instantly so they were only open for a second or so. I did turn the loop on when I filled and bled the latest rad after connecting it to the system though.
Can you adjust the pump speed? If you can reduce it that might help.
 
Can you adjust the pump speed? If you can reduce it that might help.

Just had a look at the Boiler instructions to see if it is something I'm allowed to alter and there are settings that I can change according to the booklet. I'll have a go at them and see if it makes any difference. Could this also help with the gurgling ?
 
Just had a look at the Boiler instructions to see if it is something I'm allowed to alter and there are settings that I can change according to the booklet. I'll have a go at them and see if it makes any difference. Could this also help with the gurgling ?
I'd hope so. Less water sloshing round!
 
Hi all, sorry for the delay in replying but I've been job searching ! No joy as of yet but hopefully some better news around the corner so to speak(y)

Anyway, I looked through the boiler manual and found that the boiler had been set to constant maximum speed so I've adjusted it to variable and it does seem to have quietened the system down quite a lot so thanks to fixitflav for the heads-up.

However, I think I may have caused a lot of the noise problems myself :whistle:. After doing a load of searching online etc it suddenly dawned on me that after fitting all of the zone valves in an attempt to have a bit more control over the heating, I misunderstood the workings of the system and neglected to install an automatic bypass valve ! The boiler has one in it but after reading up a bit more etc etc it appears that I shouldn't just be relying on the one fitted in the boiler and I should have created a path out of the boiler via another bypass valve for when all the zone valves are closed to allow water to flow during the pump run-on feature - d'oh.

To try and reduce any further problems (at least during the current weather coz our lass would kill me if I suggested having no heating forra couple of days) I've locked open one of the valves (to the bathroom rad) until it gets a bit warmer and I can drain the system down and fit a bypass valve. Would I be right in thinking that this should at least for the time-being alleviate any stress on the pump ?

Thanks again for your help guys, it really is appreciated. :giggle:
 
Hi all, sorry for the delay in replying but I've been job searching ! No joy as of yet but hopefully some better news around the corner so to speak(y)

Anyway, I looked through the boiler manual and found that the boiler had been set to constant maximum speed so I've adjusted it to variable and it does seem to have quietened the system down quite a lot so thanks to fixitflav for the heads-up.

However, I think I may have caused a lot of the noise problems myself :whistle:. After doing a load of searching online etc it suddenly dawned on me that after fitting all of the zone valves in an attempt to have a bit more control over the heating, I misunderstood the workings of the system and neglected to install an automatic bypass valve ! The boiler has one in it but after reading up a bit more etc etc it appears that I shouldn't just be relying on the one fitted in the boiler and I should have created a path out of the boiler via another bypass valve for when all the zone valves are closed to allow water to flow during the pump run-on feature - d'oh.

To try and reduce any further problems (at least during the current weather coz our lass would kill me if I suggested having no heating forra couple of days) I've locked open one of the valves (to the bathroom rad) until it gets a bit warmer and I can drain the system down and fit a bypass valve. Would I be right in thinking that this should at least for the time-being alleviate any stress on the pump ?

Thanks again for your help guys, it really is appreciated. :giggle:
It's usual to have a rad or two without TRV. I have one in the hall, where the roomstat is, and one in the bathroom. No bypass, automatic or otherwise.
 
It's usual to have a rad or two without TRV. I have one in the hall, where the roomstat is, and one in the bathroom. No bypass, automatic or otherwise.

I don't have any TRV's fitted as I have a thermostat in each room. I thought the idea of zone valves was to avoid the need for TRV's. Should I have fitted them also ? I know I'm not a pro but that seems to be a bit counter-intuitive to me, but then again I'm just a DIY'er :unsure:.

Sorry for delayed replies but I'm having issues logging into the forum atm due to the cookie issue. Should be OK I suppose once it's sorted.
 
I don't have any TRV's fitted as I have a thermostat in each room. I thought the idea of zone valves was to avoid the need for TRV's. Should I have fitted them also ?
So do you have a motorised valve, controlled by a thermostat, in each room? That would have the same effect as TRVs, in that they may all close, so a bypass is necessary. Just for curiosity, are the valves on/off, or modulating?
But you still have the option of one or two rads without a motorised valve. And how is the boiler controlled, is it by a roomstat in a room with no valve?
 
Hi fixitflav. Again, sorry for the late reply but it seems the powers that be may have sorted the forum access problem as I got on this time without all the "jumping through hoops" I've had to do of late so thanks to the administrators for that. (y)

So, to the task in hand. :) In answer to your questions, yes there is a honeywell V4043 2 port valve for each room, controlled by programmable thermostats in each room. The valves are just the basic on/off type as far as I know as there is no mention of a modulating capability in the paperwork I got with them. Each valve's call for heat cct is wired in parallel to the boiler call for heat input so any of the rooms can fire the boiler up independently.

I don't think it would be a problem for me to leave the bathroom rad valve pinned open in the short term but as soon as it gets warmer and the heating can be turned off I'll drain the system and fit a bypass valve, that's if it's summat I can do legally ? I presume they aren't too difficult to setup are they :unsure: I take it that they should be adjusted to open as soon as they start to detect a reduction in flow/pressure differential ?

Thanks again for all your advice. (y)
 
In answer to your questions, yes there is a honeywell V4043 2 port valve for each room, controlled by programmable thermostats in each room. The valves are just the basic on/off type as far as I know as there is no mention of a modulating capability in the paperwork I got with them.
OK thanks, interesting
Each valve's call for heat cct is wired in parallel to the boiler call for heat input so any of the rooms can fire the boiler up independently.
I did think of that but thought the wiring would be complicated, as you couldn't just common up the outputs from each roomstat and send to the boiler, as one roomstat would feed back and open all the other valves. But there's obviously a way round that, I assume double-pole roomstat, one pole to its valve, the other commoned up with the others and sent to the boiler.
I don't think it would be a problem for me to leave the bathroom rad valve pinned open
When the weather is warmer none of the stats will be calling so not an issue. In colder weather in principle the bathroom might overheat, but bathroom rads are usually small so I'd be surprised if it's a problem or there's a noticeable effect on gas usage. You could throttle the rad, but not too much!
I'll drain the system and fit a bypass valve, that's if it's summat I can do legally ? I presume they aren't too difficult to setup are they :unsure: I take it that they should be adjusted to open as soon as they start to detect a reduction in flow/pressure differential ?
I'm sure it would be legal, it's on the water side. I've never had a bypass valve and I'm just a DIY-er, but I'd be surprised if it's hard to set one up. Maybe experts on here can comment, and say if there's anything you need to bear in mind when selecting a valve.
 

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