American terrorism ?

[ajohn]

That agreement was also with Russia, and it did not prevent Ukraine from voluntarily seeking NATO membership.

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Such seeking of membership was only restarted following Russia's invasion of Crimea.

Russia's attitude to that treaty is that they didn't sign it with the current gov that achieved power by what was essentially a coup. Then Crimea factors which from Russia's point of view are strategic. Where warheads are is too. Also forces.

Geopolitics which is part of what we are looking at just needs plausible truth. The above is. Little does it matter what you and I think about it. This time the coup aspect has been clearly stated by Russia. Usually in the geopolitical area there is a need to watch what happens and figure it out yourself or it nay become clearer later, Eg Russia no longer a world power of any repute. Eg no weapons of mass destruction so what was that really about. Maybe Sadam's ideas about getting others to join him and attack Israel. Maybe it was oil related.Kuwait was.

 

[denso13]

Russia's attitude to that treaty is that they didn't sign it with the current gov that achieved power by what was essentially a coup.

Well they had to come up with some excuse. Putin is an invading thug, there is no justification for it.

 

[Pat ex]

Well they had to come up with some excuse. Putin is an invading thug, there is no justification for it.

Well done you, for making sense of any of that.

"Then Crimea factors which from Russia's point of view are strategic. Where warheads are is too. Also forces.

Geopolitics which is part of what we are looking at just needs plausible truth."

I think I'll stick to the theory of relativity, or the philosophy of 'is there a God'. It's easier.

 

[ajohn]

The regions of Donetsk and Luhansk have a majority speaking Russian; thinking Russian and feeling themselves to be Russian citizens. It would've been far better for subtle diplomacy and tolerant discussion to have taken place 10-15 years ago but since we're all well past that moment what else is there to do but watch the game unfold from afar.

The Minsk agreements were a series of international agreements which sought to end the Donbas war fought between armed Russian-backed separatist groups and ...
Signed: 5 September 2014
Language: Russian
Expiry: 21 February 2022

Another of Russia's beefs. Conditions not met. Not sure if certain Kiev actions concerning languages in Ukraine figure in those. Other factors do.

Needed a quick edit.

 

[Justin Passing]

Russia seems to think it has a right to have "buffer states" but nobody else does, apart from a couple of those states who crave Russia's support.
Nato doesn't threaten anybody - that's just putin bollox.
Russia's just a bully, like israel.
.
The Minsk agreements were a shambles. Kyiv was supposed to support the DOnbas but didn't (allegedly). Russia was supposed to stay out but didn't, they've had forces there for years..
There were lots of things which could have been done without bombing civilians.

 

[denso13]

Conditions not met

By both sides. No excuse for an illegal invasion and land grab.

 

[ajohn]

Kyiv was supposed to support the DOnbas but didn't

No - give it a certain amount of independence and create a cease fire. Cease fire rather mixed but west refused to supply Ukraine with heavy weapons. Didn't prevent certain western countries training Ukrainian troops or Russian troops stepping in when it looked like that was needed.

The geopolitics have been going on for ages.

 

[ellal]

Well they had to come up with some excuse. Putin is an invading thug, there is no justification for it.

But here's the thing...

I have said before that the president of Ukraine should have held back about joining NATO...

That would have taken away Poo Tins reason to invade...

Quite possibly he'd have done it anyway, but would have russian public opinion been then against him?

Plenty are now trying to avoid the status of being Poo Tins cannon fodder...

I for one (wrongly) expected it to have been over quite quickly, but the message it seems is don't mess with Ukranians.
Their tenaciousness is probably only rivalled by Israel and Finland!

 

[denso13]

That would have taken away Poo Tins reason to invade...

No, he said the reason (for his special military operation) was the demilitarisation and denazification of Ukraine, in his public address. NATO wasn't mentioned. It came later as the excuses mounted.

 

[gas112]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-nato-putin-idUSKBN1K92KA 4 years ago
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/u...kraine-against-joining-nato-slams-u-s-n195396 8 years ago
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/apr/04/nato.russia 14 years ago

Yep he never mentioned or warned about nato expansionism beforehand

 

[denso13]

Yep he never mentioned or warned about nato expansionism beforehand

You just quoted some?

 

[ajohn]

I for one (wrongly) expected it to have been over quite quickly,

I didn't but was surprised that they did invade. Never seen that they would aim to capture all of Ukraine either. Maybe Russia did.

It couldn't be a WWII style war with enormous numbers of troops following tanks etc as not enough troops. Throw in nlaws and tanks are even less suitable for traditional use.

 

[Ihavenojob]

Anyone remember a Trump visit were he stood over and lectured a number of EU heads sat in a tight row on cheap seats, stackable types. He basically said that Russian gas etc could be used as a weapon against them

I saw a video of it, with one of the German politicians laughing his head off.

 

[ajohn]

Leaky pipes was the topic. Wondering why Russia might do it. If they did.

They are their pipes. Tell Germany that they wont be making use of them again for a while. Not sure if anyone else can use them, Thought the west might try and make use of them. Sort of hijack some of the length they could use if there is any. Or if they didn't create the holes?????

 

[denso13]

Wondering why Russia might do it. If they did.

So they couldn't be blamed for using gas as a blackmailing tool. Blow them up, blame others, sorted.