American terrorism ?

[denso13]

'm happy to use the one you alluded to in post #106.

Ok, then no, no one should invade as per my meaning in that post.

Will you answer my question now?

 

[denso13]

When challenged

You aren't challenging anything though you are asking silly questions. Challenge away, get to the point!

 

[denso13]

Bit cryptic that post Denso.

Why, thank you...

 

[Vinty]

Yes, it's entirely unreasonable for a country to decide it's own fate.

America was prepared to start a nuclear war if Russia placed its missiles in Cuba.
No major power will allow another major power to threaten their security by placing its weapons and troops on their border.
Unfortunately Ukraine is geographically in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[IT Minion]

It's so tiresome how some people continually defend the invasion of Ukraine and still pretend not to be pro Russia.

 

[Odds]

It's so tiresome how some people continually defend the invasion of Ukraine and still pretend not to be pro Russia.

It's not so much defending the indefensible but recognising Russia has its own legitimate reasons for their actions.

 

[Pat ex]

It's not so much defending the indefensible but recognising Russia has its own legitimate reasons for their actions.

Hmmmm.
There's a few angles there, NATO is a purely defensive organisation. It doesn't have a history of invasion of other sovereign countries. (Excluding humanitarian actions)
It doesn't have "mission creep" in its usual well defined objectives.
"Your (Russia's) actions" of how you go about "your legitimate reason" is another area open to a long and detailed discussion.

 

[denso13]

It's not so much defending the indefensible but recognising Russia has its own legitimate reasons for their actions.

They claimed they were resisting the expansion of NATO and that is exactly what is happening. They made it happen.

There are no legitimate reasons for invading and illegally stealing land from a neighbour.

 

[Odds]

They claimed they were resisting the expansion of NATO and that is exactly what is happening. They made it happen.

There are no legitimate reasons for invading and illegally stealing land from a neighbour.

The link Gant provided to the nine year old article highlighted the commonly held view at the time for Russian reasons to take back Crimea since it had been gifted to the Ukrainian people in recognition of their heroic resistance against the Nazi invasion during 1941-45. Russian control of that region goes back to their fight against the Ottoman Turks in 1787 when Catherine the Great expanded the Empire to the Black Sea.
So their view of history is different to ours.
America explicitly told the Russian government in 1994 they would not seek to expand NATO in the east and Ukraine was given assurances in exchange for them giving up their nuclear arsenal.

Russia sees Ukraine as a buffer state, like China with North Korea, and doesn't tolerate interference in that region for historical reasons - the Americans have form when it comes to goading states into war; Japan being an obvious example, and sanctions on Russia and Iran have had similar dire consequences for their economies.
They pinch, pinch, pinch in order to goad a response and when they're punched turn to the world audience and whine in the UN about it. They complain about Russian aggression and completely ignore Israeli expansion over the West Bank; move their embassy to Jerusalem (a move Liz Truss is said to be considering) they ignore Saudi aggression while condemning Iran.

And i'm supposed to ignore this because Russia is 'the bad guy'.

Fair enough: how are we 'the good guys' in all of this?

 

[Pat ex]

America explicitly told the Russian government in 1994 they would not seek to expand NATO in the east and Ukraine was given assurances in exchange for them giving up their nuclear arsenal.

That agreement was also with Russia, and it did not prevent Ukraine from voluntarily seeking NATO membership.

Leonid Kuchma, who became president in July 1994, signed the quadripartite Memorandum on security assurances in connection with Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons on 5 December. The memorandum prohibited the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom and the United States from threatening or using military force or economic coercion against Ukraine, "except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations." As a result of other agreements and the memorandum, between 1993 and 1996, Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Such seeking of membership was only restarted following Russia's invasion of Crimea.

 

[denso13]

Russia sees Ukraine as a buffer state

Yes they do, but how does stealing some Ukraine territory help? Presumably they'll have to steal the whole of Ukraine to stop NATO membership? Then what, the next buffer state moving West? And threaten nuclear war as they go.

And i'm supposed to ignore this because Russia is 'the bad guy'.

Not at all, I don't think it is comparable but accept others do.

 

[Odds]

Yes they do, but how does stealing some Ukraine territory help? Presumably they'll have to steal the whole of Ukraine to stop NATO membership? Then what, the next buffer state moving West? And threaten nuclear war as they go.

Not at all, I don't think it is comparable but accept others do.

It help's in terms of Russia's status in the wider world. It was a big blow to their pride to fall out of the G8 club and tentative moves towards EU integration were soon dashed. This left Russia feeling isolated as they've held ambitions of wider acceptance within Europe since the time of Peter the Great. For 200 years they absorbed most of their culture from France, specifically Paris, and after the fall of the Soviet Union it was telling that Vladimir Putin went back to the time of the Tsars in order to restore Russian pride in the Motherland.
The regions of Donetsk and Luhansk have a majority speaking Russian; thinking Russian and feeling themselves to be Russian citizens. It would've been far better for subtle diplomacy and tolerant discussion to have taken place 10-15 years ago but since we're all well past that moment what else is there to do but watch the game unfold from afar.
It's not a game to people caught up in this madness and since the annexation of the disputed regions will only complicate future operations for the Ukrainian army and political quicksand for American strategists, i don't know what else can be done but fight on with unknown consequences for both sides.

 

[denso13]

It help's in terms of Russia's status in the wider world. It was a big blow to their pride to fall out of the G8 club and tentative moves towards EU integration were soon dashed. This left Russia feeling isolated as they've held ambitions of wider acceptance within Europe since the time of Peter the Great. For 200 years they absorbed most of their culture from France, specifically Paris, and after the fall of the Soviet Union it was telling that Vladimir Putin went back to the time of the Tsars in order to restore Russian pride in the Motherland.
The regions of Donetsk and Luhansk have a majority speaking Russian; thinking Russian and feeling themselves to be Russian citizens. It would've been far better for subtle diplomacy and tolerant discussion to have taken place 10-15 years ago but since we're all well past that moment what else is there to do but watch the game unfold from afar.
It's not a game to people caught up in this madness and since the annexation of the disputed regions will only complicate future operations for the Ukrainian army and political quicksand for American strategists, i don't know what else can be done but fight on with unknown consequences for both sides.

I don't really disagree with that at all really, but Russia don't seem to have an end game at all. I can't see a way out for either side unfortunately.

 

[Odds]

The only way out of that mess is on a tank or in a coffin.

 

[fillyboy]

They pinch, pinch, pinch in order to goad a response and when they're punched

Pinch, punch 1st of the month.