Annexe consumer unit - must it be in annexe?

At least in my opinion, it is very poorly thought-through legislation.

Kind Regards, John

on top of badly worded electrical regulations BUT I would say its clear cut C2

Plus there must have been an EICR or how else would this have been identified.

Its also very possible that the CU is a very old one with rewireable fuses or simply no RCD protection
 
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I understand it is 'best' to be able to access the CU whenever the need arises, that much is clear. The question is whether that is a cast-iron legal requirement or is it to some extent situation specific. The caravan example would be a situation where instant access isn't available but it all works out reasonably well.

So - is it law or nice to have. Opinions of individual electricians who will or won't work on a particular installation are not helpful - just the stone cold law.

Most caravans have a CU inside them ................
 
I don't believe that the PRS legislation permits a tenant or landlord (or agent) to allow an installation continued use without remedial work on C1 and C2 issues reported
Maybe I've missed it, but I am not aware of the legislation saying any such thing.

However, what the legislation does say is that if an inspection indicates the need for 'remedial action' (i.e. a C1 or C2) and if that work is not undertaken within 28 days, then, they may issue a "Remedial Notice' and then, if the Notice is ignored, arrange for the remedial work to be undertaken (and recover cost from landlord) or, if the required remedial work is regarded as "urgent" go straight to arranging for it to me done without first issuing a Remedial Notice. The legislation defines "Urgent remedial work" aas being work which "... is immediately necessary in order to remove the danger present and risk of injury", which I imagine probably means "C1".

Interestingly, it says that the LA can only arrange for remedial work to be undertaken "with the consent of the tenant" - which seems to mean that, if he so wished, the OP could refuse to give such consent!
 
C1 = Dangerous, C2 = Potentially dangerous so question is if you can't turn off a circuit, is that potentially dangerous
As I just wrote, and as you know, it is in the nature of EICRs that such decisions rely solely on the opinion/judgement of the inspector.
It is for the courts to decide, but would not say it is cut and dried.
You are always very keen to pass the buck of such issue to courts, even though you know full well that it will virtually never happen that a court is asked to rule on such matters - and, even if they ever were asked,would probably have to look to expert opinions. I therefore think that, realistically, you need to look somewhere else for guidance, even if only on the basis of common sense.

Kind Regards, John
 
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on top of badly worded electrical regulations BUT I would say its clear cut C2 .... Plus there must have been an EICR or how else would this have been identified. ... Its also very possible that the CU is a very old one with rewireable fuses or simply no RCD protection
You're just speculating all over the place. Any of what you suggest (in this and other posts) may possibly be true - but until we have seen (or learned about the contents of) an EICR, we simply won't know.
 
You're just speculating all over the place. Any of what you suggest (in this and other posts) may possibly be true - but until we have seen (or learned about the contents of) an EICR, we simply won't know.

I am not speculating about the badly worded electrical regs - that’s fact

just imagine your elderly relative lives there and needs electrical power to maintain an oxygen system and it trips - they die. How would you feel ?

and yes we don’t have all the facts, but let’s just this play out based on what’s been revealed so far.

quite why the tenant is trying so hard to prevent improvement is beyond me
 
I am not speculating about the badly worded electrical regs - that’s fact
Indeed. You were merely agreeing with me. I included that bit in my quote of your post unintentionally. My apologies.
just imagine your elderly relative lives there and needs electrical power to maintain an oxygen system and it trips - they die. How would you feel ?
I would class that as worse than mere 'speculation' - you're now just introducing almost certainly irrelevant ''hypotheticals' (aka fiction). I very much doubt that the OP would have "an elderly relative who needs electrical power to maintain an oxygen system" living with him in a building "about the size of a single garage" and, even if he did, I strongly suspect that he would have mentioned such a fact!
and yes we don’t have all the facts, but let’s just this play out based on what’s been revealed so far.
Exactly. All we can (should) do at present is 'play it out' on the basis of what we have been told - not based on speculations, extreme 'hypotheticals' or 'suspicions'.
quite why the tenant is trying so hard to prevent improvement is beyond me
You may not think he's telling the truth, but he has given us his explanation - (a) that he doesn't want the disruption in his home that the work would entail and (b) (again, if you believe him) that he feels that those managing his landlord's affairs are abusing that position by having unnecessary work undertaken which will result in financial gain for themselves.
 
You may not think he's telling the truth, but he has given us his explanation - (a) that he doesn't want the disruption in his home that the work would entail and (b) (again, if you believe him) that he feels that those managing his landlord's affairs are abusing that position by having unnecessary work undertaken which will result in financial gain for themselves.

As i previously stated i suspect he'll be on the receiving end of a S21 ................
 
As i previously stated i suspect he'll be on the receiving end of a S21 ................
Sorry to say I think you may be right, as a private individual I may well say, we don't want to see him homeless, but at work that can't have a bearing on any actions, one has to do what it is felt is best for client, and that includes raising rent, or other wise ensuring there is enough income.

It costs me £1000 per year to have an annex, if I remove the doors and fit a garage door I will not need to pay it. So council tax alone it costs £20 a week, then I have electric, water and oil costs, so likely looking at £40 per week to have it as a flat rather than a garage. Plus it would make a rather good workshop.

You are always very keen to pass the buck of such issue to courts, even though you know full well that it will virtually never happen that a court is asked to rule on such matters - and, even if they ever were asked,would probably have to look to expert opinions. I therefore think that, realistically, you need to look somewhere else for guidance, even if only on the basis of common sense.
Yes very true, however in this case we have been asked for the legal position not what would make sense, and I can't see any law which would force the tenant to have access to any electrical safety equipment, I have in the past questioned how much power is one required to provide, from the description it seems no larger than a large touring caravan, so one 16 amp over load would be enough, I suspect it has a lot more, there is not reason why a meter 1693520751105.pngshould not be installed, with a limited supply, say 32 amp, the only reason not to would be power required for cooking or shower, one would want a reasonable amount for main house, in my case the whole supply for main house and flat is 60 amp, so having half available to flat would seem to make sense, although it could be a lot lower so maybe 20 amp.

This would ensure the main house did not loose a supply due to over load, but would mean my daughter would not be able to use the shower, only the bath could be used, and using more than one ring on the cooker could also trip the supply. To date the DNO fuse has never blown, and we have no good reason to limit the power to the flat, but once we do have problems, then we would need to consider do we want any more than a double socket in what after all was designed to be just a garage.
 
Yes very true, however in this case we have been asked for the legal position not what would make sense, and I can't see any law which would force the tenant to have access to any electrical safety equipment,
Whilst I think that is literally true, as we have been discussing there IS a law which forces the landlord to have the CU moved ("within 28 days") if an EICR has given a C2 to its present ;location.

Even common sense does not help a lot in this situation. I imagine that 'common sense' tells all of us that it would be 'safer' for the CU to be in the OP's dwelling. However, that then puts us in the same position as the EICR inspector in having to decide whether having the CU in some other dwelling is sufficiently 'potentially dangerous' to warrant "a C2".

The other thing which common sense would seem to suggest is that, given that the legislation presumably exists to protect tenants, if the tenant (the OP) fully understands the 'risk' and (as he has said) is very happy to live with it (as he has been for many years) then one might think thaty he ought to be able to 'release' the landlord from the obligation to 'remedy this defect'. The problem then would, of course, arise if he were replaced by a different tenant, who might think differently.

Kin Regards, John
 
This is getting weird...
Why am I being accused of lying - just trolling? All the facts are there exactly as they exist in the real world minus identifying information. Should I add my name, address and contact details? Bank details, inside leg measurement???

Moving on:

Could someone tell me where I find the regs that have kindly been quoted?

When you refer to the local authority - which department do I talk to? I had a look at housing but that doesn't seem to be it. As you have guessed I know nothing about the building trade - property maintenance etc.

Yesterday I sent an email to the lawyers pointing out that I have had a very happy 20+ years in the annex and I don't appreciate their hostility - and that if it continues complaints will be made. I have also pointed out that there are legitimate alternatives to ripping apart both homes.

As an aside the first lawyer I ever engaged lied and overcharged - Solicitors Regulation Authority made him pay it back in the form of compensation. Eventually I found a lawyer who acted for me over a number of years. I was recently unable to contact him and found he had be struck-off (or whatever they call it - defrocked?) due to having his fingers in the till...

I expect hostility naturally. Actually being thrown out might make me rent somewhere bigger and more comfortable. In the meantime I stay on my boat in the Solent area - a long way from office + workshop but better than a shop doorway.
 
Why am I being accused of lying - just trolling? All the facts are there exactly as they exist in the real world minus identifying information.
It's pretty bizarre and it's not unique to DIYnot, I have seen in other forums as well. People want to believe in conspiracies and strive to "uncover the truth". Given that, you are right to give as little biographical detail as possible.
Don't take it personally [!], just ignore it.
 
This is getting weird... Why am I being accused of lying - just trolling? All the facts are there exactly as they exist in the real world minus identifying information.
Why? Because this is an internet forum, few of which are without at least some contributors such as you have encountered. You know the truth and I don't think you should worry about it!
Could someone tell me where I find the regs that have kindly been quoted?
When you say "the regs", do you mean the legislation regarding electrical inspections of rented accommodation? If so, click here . On the Contents page, be sure to click on the "Latest Version" option.
When you refer to the local authority - which department do I talk to?
The legislation refers to "the local housing authority" and gives this definition of that as:
(1) See the definition of “local housing authority” in section 123(6) of the Housing and Planning Act 2016.
... which, in turn says ..
(6 )In this section “local housing authority” has the meaning given by section 1 of the Housing Act 1985.
... which, in further turn, says ....
In this Act “local housing authority” means a district council, a London borough council, the Common Council of the City of London [F1a Welsh county council or county borough council]or the Council of the Isles of Scilly.
...which says almost nothing! After than run around the houses, I presume we're talking about is what would normally be called "The Housing Dept" of your LA ;)
Yesterday I sent an email to the lawyers pointing out that I have had a very happy 20+ years in the annex and I don't appreciate their hostility - and that if it continues complaints will be made. I have also pointed out that there are legitimate alternatives to ripping apart both homes.
Fair enough.
As an aside the first lawyer I ever engaged lied and overcharged - Solicitors Regulation Authority made him pay it back in the form of compensation. Eventually I found a lawyer who acted for me over a number of years. I was recently unable to contact him and found he had be struck-off (or whatever they call it - defrocked?) due to having his fingers in the till...
There are, unfortunately, 'black sheep' in every profession, and every walk of life.
I expect hostility naturally.
I'm not sure whether there is anything 'natural' about it. Others may have different views, but nothing you are saying would appear to be particularly unreasonable. However, if they remain 'hostile', I suppose you might have to move in that direction, too.
Actually being thrown out might make me rent somewhere bigger and more comfortable. In the meantime I stay on my boat in the Solent area - a long way from office + workshop but better than a shop doorway.
Again, fair enough. Coincidentally, that's a part of the world I am visiting quite frequently at the moment, since I've inherited a house (which needs a lot doing to it) in Havant (as with you, quite a long way from my home)!

Kind Regards, John
 
My son for a time lived in a narrow boat, the rules were not complied with in the main, and many moored and lived in narrow boats which did not conform with the rules, he sold the narrow boat, pity as I liked the trips, but after selling the authority controlling what one could do changed.

The new authority seemed to no longer turn a blind eye to what was going on, and would not allow people who had for years flaunted the regulations to continue to live in their boats with out them moving I think every two weeks to a new mooring which was a set amount of miles from the old one.

This caused problems for people who had children in school, or other reason why they did not want to move.

Theory schools have a national curriculum, so moving school to school should not be a problem, but in real terms it did not work. My daughter had the same with holidays, the school said she could not remove children from school for a holiday, which may be correct, however if the children attend a school while on holiday no rules broken.

So she send the children to school in Turkey while on holiday, they were more teachers than pupils, telling rest of class what UK was like, but the UK school could do nothing about duel nationality children attending school in Turkey. They do have Turkish passports as well as UK ones.

However the point is rules are hard to define, one small thing like in their case duel nationality can mean very hard to enforce laws, in your case having a second home can mean the rules are hard to define.

Your question was about the law, can the tenant be forced to have a separate supply? and as a result a separate consumer unit, but as yet not even sure if you are a tenant or lodger, and with a narrow boat it would seem more likely you are classed as a lodger. So all the rules for a tenant don't apply.
 

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