Another hate of domestics.

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Customer said: "Stripping wall paper last night and the lights tripped."

I assumed, as one does, that they'd filled a switch with water: "No switches near there."


Nice 2 year old metal CU full of RCBO's installed at time of some building works. Meggared the lighting circuit and it tested good. I tried the Bosch wire/stud detector on the wall where the wallpaper was half stripped and it detected metal across the whole wall. Then with the circuit repowered it showed the whole wall as live. The wall sounds hollow but harder than plasterboard.

I have got to the bottom of it but what would others have done at that point?
 
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Any other unique features of the wall, an ex-fire place, ex-door. What was the usage of the room?

Nozzle
 
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Any other unique features of the wall, an ex-fire place, ex-door. What was the usage of the room?

Nozzle
completely plain wall, customer moved in since last builing works so didn't know of any history.
 
I can only suggest cable damage and damp somewhere?
Not a Metal stud wall?
Foil backed plasterboard?

They're as close a guess as we're going to get.

In a very small part of the other side of the wall in a cupboard there are openings in the wall [Looks like warm air ducts have been removed and not filled] and the structure is visible. Wooden studs and expanded metal sheets then 'plastered' with a soft hairy mix poking through, just like lathe and plaster, then a finish coat, it looks like the dining room wall has had another skim at it has a modern finish.
In the loft I found 2x3/0.029 T&E's dropping into the wall which terminate in a JB near the ceiling rose and are permanently live. Checking the expanded metal showed it to be in good contact with the lighting circuit [2.1Ω between metal and RCBO].

So I've made some assumptions [always silly but I think very believable in this case]:
1) There were 2 wall lights and the cables were plastered over.
2) The water used for paper stripping, soaked into the plaster to trip the RCBO.

After disconnecting them, a good tug on one removed it but the other is stuck fast.
 
And now I've had a phone call. Neighbour has confirmed there used to be warm air heating, in fact the cupboard was filled with the heater unit, and there were chandelier style wall lights.
 
I suspect I have found a similar thing - section of wall seems to be live. I'm wondering if it's down to rf from telephones and routers etc. Using a none contact probe - not the type that only works near bare cables. Old house with blue brick damp coarse so low degrees of damp compared with modern methods. It's not enough to cause decoration problems - the area has never been redecorated in 30 years. So intend to megger it and if ok it is. ;) The socket circuit that is on the wall of course.
 
section of wall seems to be live.

Using a none contact probe - not the type that only works near bare cables.

Volt sticks and similar devices only detect the presence of a potential difference ( akin to voltage ) but give no indication about how that potential difference is created.

A volt stick can show a "voltage" of 230 on a water pipe. In truth the water pipe is grounded and the person holding the volt stick is at 230v above ground. Invariable this is due to the person's body be capacitively coupled to conductors that are live. Using a volt meter between ground and the water pipe would show the true reading of zero or near zero voltage on the pipe.

Read more: https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/strange-fault.273110/page-2#ixzz6FXFuvQo8
 
My impression is that they function via inductive ( magnetic ) and capacitive coupling. Never taken one apart but the wiki supports this. They pick up ac fields. That is what RF is as well which is why I wondered if my reading may have been down to 3 new landline phones charging and connected to the base unit which were immediately behind the section of wall that gave readings. There was a light on the wall but removed and the cable pulled out and disconnected. I got a bit fed up with the tester so currently lost. Not tried the one built into a multimeter but as for walls suspect it will be too sensitive as well.
 
Try working with an IT supply, I have once, hope never again, incomer to site 11 kV transformed to 10 kV to TBM when transformed to 660 V then 220 volt the last transformer was delta secondary so no neutral or linking to any earth point, the voltage stick or screwdriver was essential safety equipment, iron impregnated water flowing everywhere, drilled holes in bottom of wellies to let the water out, it would be running down your back all day, we had to learn again how to test, had to find another phase to test to, meters were very expensive as IP68, but the money was good, and in Hong Kong it was not cold, so on getting to surface it was wash yourself down with a hose pipe.

But in UK we read the Emma Shaw case and we realise how easy it is to make an error that results in a spell in prison. So what you do is often due to sucking air through teeth and thinking jobs worth, you may not actually say it, but you do think it.

Once found you can hardly walk away, so you end up with a reel of singles and a long wire to known good earth. Often the problem is your on your own, so switching off circuits and retesting is a long job, then it is which circuit, if it supplies a hifi easy turn it off, but when it supplies lights, not so easy. OK years ago the house did not have electric, but back then there were spigots on the wall with oil lights or candles, finding standard lamps or table lamps to keep the home usable is not easy, and while doing that your not fixing the fault.

At what point do you say sorry you need a hotel for the night I will come back tomorrow, I know I have been at a property into the small hours, but lucky not needed to give up and use Hotel, mainly as Hotel was 20 miles away over the peat so not really an option.

Today with all RCD protected circuits we don't see it as much, and the Emma Shaw death would not have happened if there had been RCD protection back then. Self employed not as much of a problem as cards in, I have gone to a job, found short of some thing, decided next job close so will call back in the morning with bit I need and fix it. Then phone call in the evening, change of plan, urgent job etc. What now? Told in no uncertain terms morning job in other direction, am I going to tell the boss I have left a job in a condition which could be dangerous? OK should never have left it, but now what, pull a sicky? I had to come clean, and it was sorted but not by me. But I know we did it years ago, but today can we really take a chance?

I now only do commercial, so easy, if faulty turn it off until fixed, not saying it does not cause problems from time to time, fault in the hall of residence could mean hotels for 20 workers, but as yet never happened.
 
:) I don't envy electricians. ;) I favour the neon screwdriver providing I can test it when using it. Usually can and have never had one stop working, I do have mixed feeling about paying out for something that I could do the right way myself but fitting an CU upgrade - don't want the hassle and it would take me longer.

I will probably buy another none contact stick but one intended to be used on cables due to something odd I noticed. 2 phases coming into the house. Took a fuse out and found that something I expected to be off was still on. One phase now but ................ It should be one phase to ground floor and other to 1st floor. It may be but seems odd,
 
Try working with an IT supply, I have once, hope never again, incomer to site 11 kV transformed to 10 kV to TBM when transformed to 660 V then 220 volt the last transformer was delta secondary so no neutral or linking to any earth point,
I've never had to get involved with anything like that arrangement, 11KV direct to 400 can cause enough headaches...
the voltage stick or screwdriver was essential safety equipment,
A much underrated piece of test kit unfortunately, and one which gets a lot of criticism in these hallowed threads. I have successfully used the LED versions on a very regular basis while faultfinding in control panels on 230v & 24v circuits. I would not relish the thought of them not being available or worse, being banned. I know some on here would like to see the back of them and if I'm honest I can see that point of view for inexperienced users as, like any tool, they need to be learnt and practiced. To the uninitiated they can and do give some very misleading test results and of course some are potentially hazardous.
I now only do commercial, so easy, if faulty turn it off until fixed, not saying it does not cause problems from time to time,.
I'd like to make the same claim, certainly my 'day job' for the last 48 years has been commercial in a selection of very different genres but there's been a fair bit of domestic on the way. These days I try to say I've retired but having been a SE subby for 15 years I've gained a reputation for finding solutions after others have failed and 2 of the companies that I've done a lot of work for quite often 'beg a favour' which tends to be 2nd visit domectic these days (E7 heaters and this thread this week, 2 last week).

A lot of these seem to be rental properties where tenants are excellent at f*****g things up... like a 10.5KW shower unit hanging on a shower curtain rail and fed with hose pipe and jubilee clips on the basin tap and 2x13A plugs in a DSSO.
 

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