Any ideas...please help if you can! Mains water problem

[sidewinder79]

I live in an old flat circa 1860s and we have a lead mains water pipe that runs from the basement flat to my top flat. This is the communal mains pipe that will go out into the street as supplied by the water company.

A leak has appeared from a tiny hole in this communal mains pipe close to my ceiling and I realise that as the pipe is in our property it is our responsibility to repair it. Only problem is that because these are old flats there aren't any internal stopcocks and the water company cannot find the outside mains stopcock either. The only option would be to turn off the water supply to the whole street which obviously we don't want to do. However the plumber can't do any repairs until the water is off.

The water company are coming back on Wednesday to have another search but the leak is getting worse and I don't really know where I stand. If they don't manage to locate the stopcock then what options do I have, if any? The water company told me on the phone last week that they may want to try digging up different parts of the road in order to find it but this would take weeks if not months in which time this leak is getting worse and worse and has even started affecting the flat below.

Whilst I'm not looking for "the answer" per se I'm just confused as to what responsiblity the water company have to help me sort this and if they are unable to offer anything do I have a right to ask them to temporariliy turn the street mains off so that this can get fixed and for them to attach a stopcock for our property?

Unfortunately these are old flats and we've never had the need to turn the water off so it's not something that anyone has dealt with before. I also asked next door who have the same set up and they are none the wiser also.
(FYI there is no management company to ask as we are self run.)

If anyone has any ideas I would be ever so grateful.

 

[terryplumb]

Freeze the lead pipe and fit a lead lock to copper with a stopcock .

 

[Doggit]

You can get leak kits that put a piece of rubber over the hole, then tighten a circlip over it; that should give you a bit of breathing space. The water supply in the flats is communal, so should bet dealt with under the service charge. If you have an issues, then the other flats will as well.

Terrys given you a very good suggestion, but I can guarantee that if you go with it, the problem will get kicked into the long grass. But as Terrys told you how to deal with, and you're plumber didn't, I'd get another plumber.

 

[terryplumb]

As a side issue ,flats built in 1860 ' s ,MUST have had quite a bit of plumbing work done over the years . there must ,in my opinion , be somewhere within the boundary of the property that water had been isolated ,probably many times over the years. This problem must have reared its head many times in 150 + years surely.

 

[sidewinder79]

Thanks very much for your replies, I really appreciate it.

I did suggest freezing the lead pipe as that's what the water company man suggested but because it was lead he said that people would be reluctant to do it. I did discuss this with my plumber but our concern was that if it all went wrong we wouldn't have the means to cut the water supply and it sounded a bit precarious plus I didn't know if that may affect us claiming it all on the buidings insurance. Presumably if it went wrong I'd have gushing water all over the place?

I will though revisit this and the rubber suggestion with my plumber. The pipes look very old so we were also reluctant to tamper too much at this stage.

You're correct though in that there must have been something over 150 years but I've lived here 40 years and it's never come up and I spoke to my neighbour who has been here 60 years (he tends to know everything about the building) and he didn't have a clue either. It's possible that the mains is buried somewhere under the pavement outside. The water company though came out and used a metal detector type thing along the road to locate the pipe but found absolutely nothing.

I have attached a picture, the yellow bit is where it looks like the water is coming from the joint but the green bit is also very wet and dripping a lot. The problem is that the hole may be on the back of the pipe and this is tucked tight into the corner.

 

[Ian H]

I would put a fitting into a length of 25mm mdpe and hang the other end out of the window, get all the lower neighbours to turn all taps on, cut the pipe, stick the fitting on, tighten it.

Then you can squeeze off on the MDPE to make you higher joint.

I've never done it inside though

 

[sidewinder79]

Thanks again very much, I’m going to relay all this to my plumber.

Does anyone have any sense of how risky it is freezing a lead pipe? As you can see in this old property the pipe is tucked into the corner almost embedded within the wall itself.

Not being in the know I have a vision of a fire hydrant just spraying water everywhere if it didn’t work.

 

[Doggit]

The pipe will get frozen at a manageable point, and then cut and have the tap fitted, then the damaged pipe will get replaced with copper. A lead pipe is thicker than copper, so will take more freeze gas to cool it; beyond that, it's metal so the principle is the same.

 

[Newboy]

Does anyone have any sense of how risky it is freezing a lead pipe?

To be honest I would try to avoid freezing old lead pipe unless there is absolutely no other option. The problem being that as the pipe is frozen the ice plug causes the pipe to expand marginally, with old lead there is a significant chance of the pipe splitting. Coupling that with having to manipulate the pipe to get any type of freeze collar on it I would think that the risk outweighs the benefit especially as, if it does go pear shaped, you're into disaster mode.

I'd be surprised it any plumber would take that job on without some form of indemnity from the client.

I'd try a patch and clamp and keep hassling the water supplier

 

[sidewinder79]

This is what I was afraid of. If the water company don’t offer any solutions and I feel that it’s been slightly left for me to try and come up with solutions even though this isn’t something I would have a clue about. If worse came to the worse presumably they would have to turn off the whole mains in the street to allow the work to be done. The water flow has increased and there will be a lot of damage if I have to wait for the water board to try different options over weeks.

 

[rochdalegas]

Are the flats converted from an origianal house? Maybe knock on the basement flat the original stopcock may well be in there?

 

[Garfeild]

Agreed, our stopcock is in the cellar, I would be looking in a basement flat, there would have been a stopcock fitted somewhere when water first put into the building.

 

[HERTS P&D]

I have frozen many lead pipes, this is what I had:

http://freezemaster.co.uk/420d/

Just make sure the pipe is frozen approx. 600mm away from where the pipe is cut.

There is lots of good info above from the other posts but I would believe there is a stopcock somewhere in the basement or ground floor.

Andy

 

[John D v2.0]

Sounds like a disaster, can you find out where the water pipe goes out to the boundary? If you can follow its path you can do the digging and risky freezing/whatever and only risk a fountain outside rather than in. The water company should have aagenerator and cat tool for finding metallic services or you can hire one.

We had no stop cock when we moved in and we called Thames water who said they would maintain a working stop cock in the street, but that department has a backlog. However he said if we ask for a meter they have one built in.
So we requested a meter and they came out within a couple of days and fitted it somehow.
Almost exactly a year later I found the internal stop cock no where near any water using appliance