Appropriate window lintel solution?

[dishman]

I have a 1930s property that has no outer leaf lintel on all it's timber windows.

I posted a query in the windows section about whether a lintel would be required for all spans where windows were replaced.The advice was any spans over 600mm an agle iron or catnic should be used.

Fitter came to assess further today. He suggested that most of the spans would be fine with just the re-enforced upvc. The only span that would require a lintel was the 2m span dining room as it is being opened up to form french doors.

He also said that as it is has no lintel and also has a soldier course, he would recommend taking the solder course out and rebuilding it in a standard pattern after adding an agle iron. He felt that a soldier course would be too weak considering the wight of the french doors opening (which would put stress on the soldier course).

So his solution was, remove solder course, add an angle iron and rebuild without solder course.

Thoughts? Alternatice Solution?

Many thanks in advance!

 

[^woody^]

You need proper coated lintels, not any old piece of rusty angle iron.

You also need a lintel over every opening regardless of size. Else it will bow the frame, and every time you bang the window shut, it will rattle the brickwork on the frame to a point where it drops and bows forward. The casements will bind before that though.

It's worrying that any fitter would say otherwise. I wonder why that could be?

 

[dishman]

Thanks woody.

I assume a Catnic lintel is not appropriate either? Or is it?

If a proper lintel is used, does that also negate concerns about the soldier course of bricks? As it is a simple but nice aesthetic.

Oh well. When you think you have found a reliable company....I hate feeling let down.....bah...

Time to find one prepared to put proper lintels in.

 

[^woody^]

Catnic make lintels, proper lintels. Proper lintels are coated to stop them rusting and expanding. You don't get this with angle iron, even if painted.

They are also thin enough to slot in and you can keep the soldiers - although they will need to be relaid.

Also, lintel replacement is not covered by any self certification scheme such as FENSA

 

[chappers]

yep a catnic ANG lintel of the appropriate length is what you want.

 

[dishman]

Else it will bow the frame, and every time you bang the window shut, it will rattle the brickwork on the frame to a point where it drops and bows forward. The casements will bind before that though.

It's worrying that any fitter would say otherwise. I wonder why that could be?

Would having fully re-enforced frames be an effective solution? Or is this still not strong enough? This seems to be the response I am given; or at least the response against bothering to use a lintel for most openings.

Their building contractor popped round today. He mentioned the word angle-iron a few times. Suggesting removing the soldier course and laying them in the standard pattern.

When I mentioned the word Catnic, he seemed to reconsider/backtrack a bit and then suggested the opening would be too large to find an angle iron of the appropriate length. It seemed to me that beacuse I used the name of a proper lintel, he thought I might know more than he thought I did. That is just me being cynical though....

What a headach...I thought this would be simple.... Somtimes I think I make this too hard for myself by reserching the correct way to do things! Somtimes I wish I was more ignorant...

However, by that logic, I would have had windows incorrectly installed I guess....bah!

 

[^woody^]

No brickwork should be supported by a frame. Reinforced or not. It will bow and the brickwork will become loose.

Anyone who suggests using angle iron for an external lintel should be bit on the head with a piece, and then asked again.

 

[dishman]

Thank you Woody.

It really is quite depressing when you confirm you are been told bull-sh1t.....and then consequently feel like you are being too picky about things.

I thought the UPVC firm I had chosed were reputable. They manufacture everthing in-house, established for a long time....it really is very disppointing.

A builder who has done a number of extensions on the street is popping round tomorrow....hopefully he will give me a proper answer.

The only downside I guess is the the addition of lintels to every window is a decent addition to the cost....but...I much rather it be done properly.

 

[dishman]

Well, a builder came and stated that the ground floor windows would certainly need lintel support. He said the top floor were less necessary due to lack of weight from above.

He specifically mentioned angle-irons. I picked him up on this. He felt that an angle iron was more appropriate. He said they can be galvanised etc to avoid concerns about rusting. He felt that a catnic lintel was not appropriate as the cavity is smaller in this age of property so there is less space to easily fit it (or something like that).

Just to re-clarify, there is a timber internal lintel on these windows.

He quoted an 2.5k for the installation 2 lintels at first floor ( 2m bedroom and 1.2 meter bathroom) and ground floor of the same spans.

So, I am back at square one.

Is it possible that the term "angle iron" is being used as a term for a modern equivalent?

i.e using a legacy term such as "angle iron" to mean a modern galvanised angle steel.

 

[dishman]

Just some images to help get a better idea of the situation.

View media item 99772View media item 99773View media item 99775View media item 99774View media item 99776View media item 99777

 

[chappers]

Well, a builder came and stated that the ground floor windows would certainly need lintel support. He said the top floor were less necessary due to lack of weight from above.

He specifically mentioned angle-irons. I picked him up on this. He felt that an angle iron was more appropriate. He said they can be galvanised etc to avoid concerns about rusting. He felt that a catnic lintel was not appropriate as the cavity is smaller in this age of property so there is less space to easily fit it (or something like that).

Just to re-clarify, there is a timber internal lintel on these windows.

He quoted an 2.5k for the installation 2 lintels at first floor ( 2m bedroom and 1.2 meter bathroom) and ground floor of the same spans.

So, I am back at square one.

Is it possible that the term "angle iron" is being used as a term for a modern equivalent?

i.e using a legacy term such as "angle iron" to mean a modern galvanised angle steel.

sorry to say you have another builder who doesn't know what he's talking about. The cavity has nothing to do with it as you only need an angle lintel which will have a lower flange of 91 or 95 mm.
Not to mention that you can get cavity lintels down to 50mm.
I can assure you that there is a proper lintel solution for every type of wall you are ever likely to encounter in this country.
Are you absolutely sure that you have no lintels, your ground floor windows don't look original

 

[^woody^]

I would avoid anyone that mentions angle iron. And I can not see anyone having a piece specially galvanised either - the delay and the expense just makes that silly.

Angle iron will be thicker so messes up the mortar joint alignment, it has no drip for water run off, and rusts quickly - expanding as it does. An angle iron is also not calculated for the load - it's a case of just hoping for the best.

I don't know what that builder is thinking about cavities, the model that chappers posted, ANG, or any other manufacturers type, is actually thinner than angle iron. It's just such a simple thing to pick one up from the merchants, I can't understand why any other thing would even be considered.

No, what the builder is thinking, is to buy a cheap small section of steel or just a flat piece to easily put under the bricks.

The wall above the ground floor window will likely need to be rebuilt. It's already dropped and is loose so won't prop easily, so putting a lintel in will be relatively simple.

The widows above still need a lintel, as despite a light load, you still should not have brickwork on plastic frames for the reason posted above - it will come loose, and that will be more guaranteed than any warranty you get.

For that price quoted, I'd expect the builder to be replacing a the external and internal lintel too.

I forget to add that this type of work normally involves fitting a cavity tray too.

 

[dishman]

Are you absolutely sure that you have no lintels, your ground floor windows don't look original

I was going to mention that. You are correct the groundfloor windows are not original. This side takes the brunt of the weather. They must have been replaced in the 70s with more single glazed timber windows (the ground floor ones are single glazed timber storm style windows).

I can only assume this was not done properly back then either as (as woody spotted) there has already been some drop in the bricks above due to this. I would assume this would only happen if a lintel was not installed at that point.

With it being 70s timber, the groundfloor windows are in worse condition than the 1930s originals (which could be repaired).

Really appreciate both your comments.

I don't know what that builder is thinking about cavities,

From the brief conversation, he mentioned somthing about the cavity being too small to properly fit a Catnic..because it bends up and into the cavity or somthing (again, I mentioned this to see what his response was). It was along those lines anyway. The cavity, from what I remember is around the 50-75mm mark (I will check).

Again, this builder has done two large extensions for neighbours down the road which looked pretty competant. It is deeply frustrating that it is seemingly very difficult to get a decent builder. Or at least one who quotes reasonably and with the correct solution.

I makes me feel like I am over analysing or making a big job out of a small one.
Many trades do not like people asking questions or questioning their solutions. Even if they are incorrect.

 

[stuart45]

From the brief conversation, he mentioned somthing about the cavity being too small to properly fit a Catnic..because it bends up and into the cavity or somthing

If the inner lintel is timber he might be talking about a CT F5 lintel, which is normally used on timber framed houses and bends across the cavity and is clipped to the timber.
This is designed for a cavity your size though.

 

[lostinthelight]

Catnic make lintels, proper lintels. Proper lintels are coated to stop them rusting and expanding.

Not always woody, this is one I removed last week which was from a mid 70's build
litl