ATAG Boiler Query

[GRN1]

We have an old 60 kW Beeston-badged Atag boiler (circa. 2004) which is used in conjunction with an Atag 'brain'. There are two control panels on different floors looking after 2 heating zones and hot water for the whole building.

I have 2 questions and would really appreciate some assistance:

1. An error message of BL85 keeps coming up on the Atag boiler. Atag told me that the error code could refer to one of three things - either a faulty pump, an inlet filter which needs replacing/cleaning, or faulty pressure sensors. A local company has come out twice this week to inspect the boiler and although they cleaned the inlet filter, the boiler still refuses to start each morning. The error message of BL85 keeps coming up. The only way I can get it to fire up is by pressing the reset button 2-3 times.

Does anyone have any idea what the problem relates to?? If it is the pump that is at fault, can any Grundfos pump be used to replace the existing one?

Finally, while on the subject of pumps, can I change the 2 x Grundfos UPS 15-60 130 pumps controlling the 2 heating zones with the newer more efficient Grundfos Alpha2 15-60 130 pumps?

Any advice would be truly gratefully received.

Many thanks..


GRN1

 

[Agile]

2004 is not that old for a larger boiler.

If the pump and filter are OK then the fault is likely to be with the sensors. Perhaps not failed but just blocked inlets.

That firm dont seen very knowledgeable. A competent heating engineer does not need a customer to tell him what to do and will identify the fault and fix it. Yours did not. Now I am having to suggest what may be wrong even though I am not being paid to fix it.

I would question if they inspected the pump impellers.

Its difficult to comment on the pump without seeing the system layout. My first thought would be dont change anything unless advised by a professional on site.

Tony

 

[silverback18]

bL 85 means that the control has NOT detected a water flow, so as Atag said it will either be pump fault, filter blockage there is a filter built into the return pipe inside the boiler, I would think this is the best place to start, but I would get an engineer to look at this, pressure sensor? I would think this would be shown by odd pressure readings, what is shown on the pressure read out of the boiler. 2004 I would think this is a Blauwe Engel, if so the pump will be a modulating pump so standard pumps will be no good, get the pump from Atag, but get it replaced by an installer.

 

[htgeng]

sounds like your system will be on a low loss header and some photos of the boiler and pipework should allow us to confirm that.

What the others said and if the system is old then fit a larger magnetic filter on the return to the boiler. Did you speak to Atag and ask for a local agent near you?

 

[mickyg]

hardly taxing for a decent engineer to check the pump, filter and pressure sensor, the filter should be cleaned on servicing. The pressure sensor could have some muck in it. This fault is the same as a Vaillant F75 fault.
You might be best advised to get an ATAG agent to look at it.

 

[silverback18]

Yes 60kW will definately have a low loss header as the internal pump will only have the capacity to pump around the heat exchanger, you will also have an external pump, it will be the internal pump fault that will be causing the bL85

 

[GRN1]

Thanks very much for the quick responses - very much appreciated. I really don't know what to do at present as we have already spent a lot of money fixing the Atag boiler and really do not really want to throw more good money after bad.

To summarize the situation, I am based in Cardiff, but there does not seem to be many heating engineers that can service commercial ATAG boilers in this area (apart from the company that came out last week and who also serviced the boiler last April).

To give you some additional background info. the "Atag" boiler was in the building which we purchased from a church earlier this year. The previous owners of the building had told us that the boiler had a history of being unreliable (they had also used the same company). Perhaps with hindsight I should have bought a new one with a warranty but I thought that maybe if it was serviced professionally we could keep it for a few more years.

We contacted Atag and they put us in touch with a company in the area (do not wish to name them) who serviced it and replaced the heat exchange unit. The repairs were costly IMHO and we paid just short of £1k for all the work done. Although the boiler worked well after the service, the person from the company told us that to change the on/off times of the boiler and dhw we had to read the programmer manual and do this ourselves.

Pls forgive me for sounding ignorant but certain parts of the instruction manual are not very clear to me as an average user. I still don't know how the two zones operate in the building (as no plans were left) and if one of the controllers is a master controller or not!

I called Atag again and they gave me the number of a chap 'who was going up and down the country and who could "programme" the older controllers for the Brain.' I left 3 messages for the guy Atag recommended but he never returned my call.

After the heat exchange unit was replaced last April and the unit serviced the boiler worked perfectly until last week when the error code BL85 came up. My dilemma, therefore, is the following:

1. Do I throw more money at the machine with the existing heating company? Each call out with the local company mentioned above is approx. £130 as I am not on a contract with them.

Or

2. Do I replace the boiler with a new one? If so, which one could you recommend if it was a like for like swap (boiler is 60 kW)? It's strange because everyone seems to praise Atag on this newsgroup so maybe I have been unlucky?!

Or

3. Do I try and find a different heating engineer/company that can work on it? If so, can anyone recommend a company in Bristol or Swansea that might be prepared to work on the boiler?

I am sorry to bombard you with all these questions, but I have residents living in the building and really need to do something quickly in view of the weather getting colder.

Any thoughts??


GRN1
[/i][/b]

 

[GRN1]

Forgot to mention that the company I referred to in my previous postings are Atag agents. Thought I would make that perfectly clear as everyone was suggesting to get hold of an Atag agent.

GRN1

 

[mehran]

that is a tough one...

ATAG a praised because they are technically advanced and appeal to the more geeky installers mostly.

but you hit the nail on the head... to complex for average joe. i did not like them when I seen them and from what I have found out they were not very well like back home in holland as well...to change such a young boiler is such a shame but if it has a history of unreliably then you maybe better off.

new boiler for 60kw can be tackled a few ways. if it was me and you already have a low loss header then two smaller sized boilers that a greater number of people know how to fix with simpler controls for you.

 

[silverback18]

Atag are excellent boilers, nothing in them that is any more complicated than any other boiler, installers who won't service them just don't know them, nothing to do with them been over complicated, I think you have been unlucky, I have fitted loads of Atag boilers and never had any major breakdowns or problems, if you were closer I would take a look for you, the bL 85 means no circulation detected, so either blocked filter or pump failing, either way it could be poor quality water within the system that is causing the problem, what is the heating system that it is connected to? is it under floor heating and if so how old is the heating system, I had it once before in a church where the UFH system had been installed using non barrier pipe, this caused lots of problems with a Geminox boiler where oxygen was constantly been drawn into the system, this caused pumps to fail and heat exchangers to fail, in the end we split the system with a plate heat exchanger to protect the boiler.
What is the pressure on the digital read out on the boiler.

 

[GRN1]

Update - Monday morning. 15/11

In response to Silverback 18's queries, the pressure on the Atag boiler is currently reading 1.6 - 1.7. It is a gas based heating system with two zones fed from the boiler (over 3 floors) and it is also connected to a cylinder which supplies hot water to 3 floors.

On Saturday, I managed to get it working by pressing the reset button 3 times (!) and by adjusting the speed of the 2x Grundfos pumps below the boiler which had some effect. I left the heating on continuous heating over the weekend but this morning it stopped working and is reading BL85 again.

Incidentally, I noticed on Saturday that there was a water stain on part of the ground floor ceiling. I cut around the affected area and sure enough one of the pipes is leaking water. It is not a huge loss of water - just a slow drip - but the system is obviously not water tight. I am almost certain that this is one of the heating pipes as it felt quite warm. Could this be contributing to the problem or am I way off target??

The company in question has offered to change the internal Grundfos pump (190.00 UKP + VAT) and I am now thinking this might be the best way to go.

Just curious to know if anyone has any thoughts about the leak affecting the system or not?

Thanks in advance for your continued help and advice.

GRN1

 

[silverback18]

A leak would be reflected in the system pressure, when you took the pressure reading was the system hot or cold, the Atag Boilers should be pressurised to 1.5bar cold, I think changing the pump is your best bet and £190.00 is not a bad price, get them to check the filter in the return pipe of the boiler at the same time.

 

[htgeng]

A leak would be reflected in the system pressure, when you took the pressure reading was the system hot or cold, the Atag Boilers should be pressurised to 1.5bar cold, I think changing the pump is your best bet and £190.00 is not a bad price, get them to check the filter in the return pipe of the boiler at the same time.

Request the pressure sensor is changed at the same time then you have covered all the bases. The pump isn't cheap and confirm it is the modulating pump of the same specification. If you look in the boiler manual it will tell you the type.

There are various reasons why many installers shy away from Atag boilers. Lack of freebie kickbacks(holidays, vouchers etc), cba to go on a technical course... They aren't overly complicated and the fact the boiler keeps giving you the BL85 should be seen as a blessing as its protecting it from self destructing which is what most other boilers on the market would do.

Even though its 6 years old it may have had a hard life its been run 24/7/365 days. If you check the info parameters 24/25( i think) it will tell you how many hours the burner has been active. It may surprise you.

 

[ShiverAndShake]

We've had nothing but trouble with our Atag Q60 boiler. It's less then 5 years old but we have had enough and are about to get it replaced with another make. I would never buy another Atag. I'm sure there are things to like about them if you're a boiler geek, but, as far as I can tell, the main problems are that (a) too few heating engineers understand how they work and (b) even a lot of the engineers who claim to understand them are demonstrably unable to fix them when problems occur.

We had several Atag-trained engineers come in and tell us contradictory things about our heating system. The only common theme was some irrational reverence for the holy boiler which "could not possibly be the cause of your heating not working" but finally turned out to have a broken heat exchanger. Atag UK were not a lot of help either, seemingly doing everything they could to wriggle out of their "guarantee" on the boiler. (Apparently, because we did not install entirely new pipework and radiators at the time we had the boiler installed, even though it was done by an Atag-recommended engineer, they wash their hands of any subsequent faults.)

 

[htgeng]

Atag UK were not a lot of help either, seemingly doing everything they could to wriggle out of their "guarantee" on the boiler. (Apparently, because we did not install entirely new pipework and radiators at the time we had the boiler installed, even though it was done by an Atag-recommended engineer, they wash their hands of any subsequent faults.)

I'm tempted to say given you are a new poster this is a message aimed at muck spreading more so because of the limited information and your claim to be wiping your hands of it even though the heat exchanger 10 year warranty is only equalled by one other manufacturer.

To be fair, Atag are like any manufacturer who will not cover a warranty claim if they believed the system wasnt properly cleaned or treated with inhibitor. If the Atag HE failed(and its construction is out of quality stainless steel pipes) , then I wouldn't hold much hope for lesser makes. They give 10 years warranty on the HE and Q boilers have a 5 year warranty so I'd like to hear their side of the story if you claim its "Only because the pipework and radiators weren't replaced".

Has the system water been independantly tested? Fernox offer a postal service for this purpose. If I was in your position and truly felt their there was a just claim thats what I would be doing.

If this story is true and the failure is due to corrosion in the system then even if you replace with another brand of boiler you will have to properly clean the radiators and pipework. Given the cost of alterations that you would have to bear, a replacement heat exchanger installed in the Q60 would still be cheaper than a completely different make. Why don't you have the system water tested then give the results to Atag to see if they will change their position or at least give you a discount off a replacement heat exchanger?