Baltur (EOGB) burner morning and afternoon lockouts

[kevindonkleywood]

Newbie posting

Having some difficulty with our Baltur BTL6P (EOGB). 2 stage

Initially very occasional lockouts associated with what we believed to be fuel starvation (empty tiger loop and filter) tank is lower than burner.

The location of the tigerloop filter and firevalve was also very prone to heavy icing in the winter. The suction required to prime the system seemed excessive maybe indicating a damaged/crimped line.

Have replace the old 8mm oil line with 15mm plastic and replaced the external tiger loop with an internal GSpro-FI3 filter/deairator combo. We also added a NRV at the tank end of the oil line.

Now have no difficulty priming the syetem to the deairator and the oil line suction is only 0.3-0.5 bar so well within the spec of the pump. With the deairator being internal at least the 'first drink' of oil should be at room temp.

Given the potential for muck in the oilline The boiler was serviced and a new nozzle fitted (a danfoss 1gal 60ES replacing a 60S)

Since this work was done the boiler is repeatedly locking out at the start of its morning and evening burn periods.Its takes anything from a single restart to 6-7 attempts to get it to fire (no clear pattern) Once firing it will burn without problem and refire without incident.

My initial thoughts were air in the line but have checked and double checked the line (and it has a NRV fitted) Currently the GSpro is mounted slightly below the level of the burner but not sure this is likely to be a prob? I then wondered if it was a lockout due to second stage firing but the flame looks ok and the restart would be the first stage flame?

When burning the flame appears clean with no visable smoke, (maybe a little smelly)

Pump pressures seem to be ok for both stages.

Is it worth replacing the photocell (it appears to work fine for starts after the initial post quiet period starting problem). Should I go back to a 60S rather than the ES.



Any suggestions for the next most likely?

Thank you

 

[Burnerman]

What is the initial start up pressure....does it have a soft start for around 20 sec before switching on to full pressure?
John

 

[kevindonkleywood]

John Yep it burns the first stage for about 20 seconds before switching to full pressure if the heat demand is high enough. Pressures were 10bar and 22bar if i remember correctly.

 

[DeltaT2]

If your 15mm plastic oil line is green? I hope it's all buried as it will deteriorate with Sun light.

 

[oilhead]

What does the GSpro specification sheet say for the supply? I would say 15mm is too big, giving you aheavy load to pull through especially with a nrv. Imagine the difference of suction required to drink through a drinking straw as opposed to a kitchen roll inner. If all your joints are airtight, then a nrv is not required. The problem fault finding with the pro is that you can't see the bubbles as on a tiger loop. Just check that all the joints are tight, and that the bleed screw and filter bowl are tight. Also, if your plastic pipe is not buried or protected, it is vulnerable to rodent attack.

 

[simond]

A simple grasp of physics would be useful here.

On your reasoning, the tiger loop would be happiest with a 1mm pipe. I'm an oftec installer, probably not the best but some of the stuff you read here is unbelievably crass.

 

[oilhead]

As an OFTEC installer, I pity any customers who choose you!!! You obviously are one of those who don't bother reading the instructions regarding the equipment you install. I am also OFTEC, but also experienced and able to think about the principles of operation of burners and boilers.
My reasoning is that the manufacturer has done his calculations and will have produced a table to give the optimum combination of pipe diameter, lift and quantity of oil. If you care to look at this table, you will see that the unit does not perform at all well with 15mm pipe. Granted on a gravity feed, then the bigger the pipe, the lower the resistance, but where you are lifting, the principle is totally different. As you say 'a simple grasp of physics'

Going back to the original post, I am not familiar with this burner; if it is high/low, or soft start, then is there modulation of the air supply. If not,it is possible that you are suffering from flame detachment at start-up. Have the correct CO2 figures been achieved or are they a little lean?

 

[Burnerman]

I'm completely out of my depth with this burner so I can't offer any constructive comment, but usually with a 2 stage burner the initial start pressure is low if it gets grumpy......often there are heavy soot deposits within the combustion area too.
You mention a bit of a smell from the burner - has it been set up properly before using the correct equipment?
Are the tank filter(s) clean?
John

 

[oilhead]

Returning to the original post, then the ES nozzle is probably not the best, as it was designed for enhanced operation with 28 sec oil, so reverting to an 'S' should be better.
Are you achieving the required CO2 content at low fire? The problem you describe is typical of flame detachment due to excess air, especially at start up. Are you able to establish what your oil presure is immediately on a cold start. If the pump allows the fitting of a gauge that measures pressure prior to the solenoid opening, then it is worth checking this at a full cold start. From this you can establish that the GS is not losing its oil like your tiger loop was.

 

[kevindonkleywood]

Thanks, I will revert to a new S nozzle as i now have some spares and put the gauge on the pump at cold start and check the figures.

 

[dcawkwell]

15mm pipe is too big.

If you were replacing the oil pipe why didn't you just go for a two pipe system?

Replace oil pipe ideally with flow and return of 10mm.

I would expect that to fix it.

This is assuming burner has been adjusted and running at right pressure and co2.

Don't know this make and model of burner but I would also look at coil and pump solenoid as possible causes.

 

[kevindonkleywood]

Thanks for taking an interest and for te many helpful comments.


Im a however a little confused by the comments regarding the 15mm pipe.

Suction line vaccum is determined by two things. The height of the lift and the friction losses in the line. The friction line losses increase with increasingly viscous oil and decrease with increasing diameter pipe. The volume of oil in the line has nothing to do with the suction vacuum. Which as stated is running between 0,3 and 0.5 bar (well within the specs of the equipement installed) this is a 45m long line and the burner is a 75kw burner. if you do the calcs the minimum line diameter reccomended is 12mm if i go with the equipment specs and lift height table for the original line diameter it would not be suitable beyond half that distance which was part of the reson for replacing it.

But as my good lady will point out "im often wrong"

 

[oilhead]

Have tried to find a full data sheet for this de-aerator, but with no success.
In all other de-aerators, there is a correlation of quantity/height of lift/length of lift. What height of lift do you have?
Is it a steady lift from the tank to burner, or is the lift just in the last part of the distance?
In the data sheets of the units I can find, a 5/16" pipe will handle from 0-13gph, however, if a significant part of your 45mt length is fed by gravity, then you are best retaining the 1/2" pipe for this length, and reducing to 8 or 10mm for the vertical lift. You will still be operating with light oil in terms of the units capability.
The controlling factor in your suction is the burner oil pump, and this will only 1/4" ports, so you have a situation where you are trying to lift through a smaller orifice than the supply orifice. Using my original analogy, imagine the suction you need to suck out of a container with a drinking straw attached to a kitchen roll inner. I'm sorry I can't be more 'scientific'.
45mts is a very long length to combine with lift, most oil pumps on this size of burner would not cope with moderate lift over the whole of that length.

 

[dcawkwell]

Thanks for taking an interest and for te many helpful comments.


Im a however a little confused by the comments regarding the 15mm pipe.

Suction line vaccum is determined by two things. The height of the lift and the friction losses in the line. The friction line losses increase with increasingly viscous oil and decrease with increasing diameter pipe. The volume of oil in the line has nothing to do with the suction vacuum. Which as stated is running between 0,3 and 0.5 bar (well within the specs of the equipement installed) this is a 45m long line and the burner is a 75kw burner. if you do the calcs the minimum line diameter reccomended is 12mm if i go with the equipment specs and lift height table for the original line diameter it would not be suitable beyond half that distance which was part of the reson for replacing it.

But as my good lady will point out "im often wrong"

Looking at a trianco manual with the pump having to lift 3.5m a 10mm line will be enough for 88metres distance. 4.0m a 10mm line gives enough for 40metres. They show fitting the non return valve in the vertical run near the house rather than at the tank similar to the HRM boiler that is at the boiler than at the tank.

 

[Boilerman2]

Might be a stupid question BUT is there a by-pass screw in the oil pump?

and yes your 15mm oil line is too big - think how easy it is to suck water up a drinking straw, try doing the same with a piece of 19mm PVC pipe - much more effort required to lift the liquid!!! thats Physics!